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Nothing on this website or in direct communications received from us, or in our articles in the media, should be construed to mean or imply that offshore voyaging is anything other than potentially hazardous. Dangers such as, but not limited to, extreme weather, cold, ice, lack of help or assistance, gear failure, grounding, and falling overboard could injure or kill you and wreck your boat. Decisions such as, but not limited to, heading offshore, where you go, and how you equip your boat, are yours and yours alone. The information on this web site is based on what has worked for the authors in the past, but that does not mean it will work for you, or that it is the best, or even a good way for you to do things.
Hi John,
No surprise, I generally agree with you conclusions. Cutters are certainly king offshore in many conditions. I have never sailed a solent rig offshore but I will admit to being intrigued by the possibility of 2 headsails poled out for the tradewinds even though I understand your reservations about being locked in with this rig. To me the question is always how do you fly storm canvas on a cutter rigged boat. Do you make the staysail and furling gear so heavy that it can do it, do you undersize the staysail and make it heavy so that it never needs reduction, do you make the staysail hank-on or do you plan to swap sails in a furler. I have sailed on boats set up for all and all have their issues but I think that if I were really planning to sail hard offshore, I would be tempted to go hank-on for the staysail up to 50’+. Doing a trade-winds run, I would put the staysail on a furler and then plan to swap for a storm sail well in advance of any weather.
Since you mention coastal, I think that fractional sloop rigs can be great coastal rigs. Even 40′ boats can run hank-on sails in many cases and they are small enough that they don’t force you to swap the jib often, you can do most adjustment in the main. If roller furled, it also has a wide wind range before you are too furled and shape goes to heck.
One of the most important points you make is about importance of jib shape and how closely tied it is to whether it is roller reefed or not. Our boat is a sloop with hank-on sails and my absolute favorite setup is when we go to our 100% blade jib (slightly high cut for a true blade). Amazingly, on the wind this sail keeps up with a 150% jib by about 10 knots true and by 12 it is faster. Reaching, those numbers go up but only by a small amount. The 150% was a basically new sail when we bought the boat and I just bought a new 135% this year as I felt that the 150% was just too big and narrowed the top end of its range too much and was too inefficient otherwise (we carry 3 jibs and an asym). My own feeling is that most of the boats around us would do better overall with a smaller jib. If I were going roller furling right now, I think that I would put a 120% on the furler for our New England weather and have a second bare stay for hank-on jibs for higher winds. Our boat stays more balanced than I would have expected as we change the jib size so I often go to our “storm” (really a gale jib) jib by the time it reaches 30 steady and can simply adjust the main from there.
I realize that my post reads like an ad for hank-on sails and the funny thing is that I don’t totally love them but having 1 smaller headsail be hank-on really give you a lot of flexibility. However, for a genoa on a 50’er, there is no way I would consider hank-on, it has to be the right application.
Eric
Agree. I go further: the working staysail is hanked on and the storm staysail is hanked on below it in its bag, which is lashed down.
That is how we roll, too, with our cutter rig. Plus a yankee on a furler forward on a short, stout bowsprit.
Hi Eric,
Yes, good point on using both headsails downwind on a solent boat, that said it’s worth remembering that one could do the same on a cutter and that the projected area would be about the same (unless the solent used an extending pole) given that the cutter will have a bigger foretriangle.
The big problem I see (aside from the being locked in) is that all of these twin headsail rigs require two poles to use effectively offshore, unless one guys out the boom, and so doing is just another lock in.
On using the roller furling staysail as a storm sail on a cutter, we have never found it that complex, but there are some things that make it work for us: https://www.morganscloud.com/2013/06/01/how-to-heave-to-in-a-sailboat/
That said, we do carry a storm jib, but have never had to use it. About the only time I could see that ever happening would be if we had to beat off a lee shore. Obviously the change could be a challenge, but given that both sails are quite small, even on our boat, and that we have retaining tabs sewn to both, quite doable. See this post for more on changing to the storm jib: https://www.morganscloud.com/2012/03/23/handling-roller-furling-sails/
That said, for the first three years we had the boat we had a hanked on staysail and while we now prefer roller furling, it’s not by a huge margin. Probably boat size is the governing parameter.
And yes, I totally agree on what a bad idea 150% genoas are. Our boat had one when we bought her (staysail stay was removable at that time) and I sold it without ever taking it out of the bag. The damned things are simply the result of poorly thought out rating systems.
As for hank on sails generally, I’m a fan, but again I think it’s boat size dependant, and probably age too!
And I love fractional rigs with big mains and blade jibs. In fact one of the lead contenders for my old age boat is rigged just that way, although it needs to be said that a sail area to displacement ratio of 24 is a lot of what makes that work—most cruising boats would be slugs rigged that way.
Hi John,
I agree that hanked on sails are an age and boat size dependent thing. I am still young enough and have the advantage of being a physically large guy so that I find it manageable. Our new 130% is around 450 ft^2 and the old 150 was obviously a bit bigger and only occasionally did I find it to be a pain in the neck (we do almost all sail handling solo). I also have the advantage of having sailed on some boats with much larger hank-on sails that really were tricky and could be carried in much stronger conditions so that when they finally did need to come down, they could be a handful even with several crewmembers, these boats made everything else feel a lot easier.
It is interesting that you have never had to use your storm jib. I have had several occasions to use a “storm jib” but in truth I would not consider any of them to actually be a true storm jib and rather just ones sized appropriately for a strong gale. That said, I have never actually needed to change a headsail on a cutter, all of the changes have been on sloops which is a rig not well suited to heavy weather anyways because of this issue. This may fall into the category of every 1 in 50 years you are incredibly thankful to have it but all the other times it is more convenient and safer to have a good staysail on a roller furler. I had missed the post that shows the loops you have, I can imagine that those are critical to managing the sail outside the foil.
Eric
Hi Eric,
I think that’s exactly it: 1 in 50 years that you will want the roller furling staysail off and the storm jib on. In fact that’s exactly my experience in that just about 40 years ago, on the way home to Bermuda in my old boat one fall, we got caught in an un-forecast bomb off Cape Hatteras and were thankful for a storm jib as we had to claw off. Also the reason I carry a storm trysail: https://www.morganscloud.com/2013/06/01/lee-shores/
But since then I have actually carried the part rolled staysail in as much wind, but with it aft and never felt the need to change. The point being that as long as one is not trying to claw off a lee shore a staysail works fine since you just roll in enough that the loads are low. Ditto heaving to: https://www.morganscloud.com/2013/06/01/how-to-heave-to-in-a-sailboat/
And yes, the loops are vital to our strategy. A trick I learned from Dodge Morgan.
Hi Eric,
When I bought my cutter rigged 40-foot boat back when, I was initially disappointed that the staysail was on a roller furler. Fairly quickly, a couple of things started to become apparent.
One, I had the staysail deployed anytime the wind was forward of abeam so I was just using it a lot more than expected. In that way having the staysail on a furler approached the reasons I have the jib on a furler. As my sail plan quickly evolved to a low-clewed staysail and a higher clewed jib topsail, the synchronicity with which they worked together, just made a furler even more sensible. Those boats that sail more like a sloop: jib out and roller reefed till doused when the staysail is then deployed, might more reasonably take to hanked-on sails. But on cutters where the staysail is frequently used I appreciate roller furling.
The other thing was the versatility I experienced. My take is that cruising boats do passages where wind is generally steady and changes gradual, but that, in practice, a majority of time and mileage is coastal cruising. And so many of these day sails start out in mild breezes, only to crank up as the day progresses. Being able to throttle down with no visits to the fore-deck is just really nice, comfortable, and safe. Often, by the end of the day, we are sailing with just the staysail and a reef or two in the main, all without drama and work.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Hi Dick,
That’s been pretty much exactly our experience too
Hi Dick,
As I mentioned in my reply to John, I find it interesting that he has never used the storm jib on Morgan’s Cloud. Hopefully my initial comment was clear that I would tend towards a roller furling staysail in normal sailing and my speculation on a hank-on one was for more adventurous places than coastal cruising or tradewind sailing. Of course, I believe that you and John both been to higher latitudes than I so it is interesting that you both lean towards roller furling. Interestingly, I really don’t mind the extra time associated with hank-on, we actually take the jib off most times that it comes down so that the foredeck is clear and it doesn’t influence our decision of which sail to use the next time.
All this is said by the owner of a sloop but who has sailed on several different cutters with different setups but I have never actually gotten to set one up myself for my preferences. If I bought one for my current sailing, I would think that it would be all furler based and it may be that it is overly conservative to go hank-on even for more adventurous places.
Eric
Hi Eric,
I have had a fortunate life in many ways, but one is that I have never had to claw off a lee shore in high winds.
I have gone to wind in gale conditions on numerous occasions: often towards the end of day along the Turkish coast when I wished to get to an anchorage (and, of course, when anchored the wind died giving us a beautiful evening). On these occasions, the staysail and main with three reefs have done the trick (and hand steering- fun for a couple hours- allowing me to feather in gusts). I believe I have only reefed the staysail when hove-to and that, in part, so the leach does not rub on the radome.
I do not carry a storm jib and had the staysail made robustly of HydraNet Radial, a material I have been very pleased with for 7 years now.
My best, Dick
Hi John, love the variety of topics you are covering – good stuff.
To go offshore, Doyle Sails suggested changing from our 135% genoa to a 100% high modulus jib (solent), low cut as you suggest John. AND YES we can see OK underneath the solent upwind, if we duck down (harder in a big sea but not impossible) and we can more easily look around it, being a much smaller jib. From experience in running a low cut jib solent rig, a couple of other points…
On the wind you want inside sheeting for pointing, but even with slightly eased sheets we find we NEED outboard sheeting. As you say the low cut blade shape is not as forgiving as a higher cut genoa off the wind. So we run inboard and outboard tracks and two sheets per side, the outer tracks being on the cap-rail. This gives us great luff and sail shape control at all times, but the downside is if we are careless, having two lazy sheets they can get in a knot, whilst tacking. We could just attach the outboard sheets when eased off, but offshore and shorthanded this doesn’t seem practical.
Secondly, the benefit of having jib battens to hold good jib sail shape – Doyle advised we use vertical battens, which work great and roll perfectly aligned with the forestay, but these make it harder to quickly drop and flake the jib on the foredeck when required. But the relatively flat blade jib rolls much tighter than our old, fuller genoa, so we don’t often feel the need to remove it.
For completeness, we run a high cut Doyle “Code 0” forward of the jib / forestay, on an extended and much strengthened bow roller-fairlead with solid support strut under. So I do call ours a solent rig as when out cruising, the Code 0 stays rolled up ready to use (except on long windward legs, at anchor more than overnight, or if a gale is expected). And we use the Code 0 a lot.
Similar to Eric, the VMG performance cross-over between jib / genoa for us came at about 13-14 knots. But we can hold the Code-0 upwind to around 12 knots (12-14 if the wind is stable), so a small performance hit. Overall I think it is a good compromise for production boats designed with genoas, looking for a more manageable sail combination offshore.
Rob
Hi Rob,
Sounds like a great rig, and very much in line with where my thinking has been going lately. That said, I would call it a sloop with a removable code zero, not a solent, which implies to me a fixed genoa furler that can’t be removed.
And yes, sheeting outboard improved things a lot when reaching with a blade, but a high cut sail will always be better yet and does not generally require a lot of messing with leads—it’s all about tradeoffs.
An additional advantage of cutter vs. sloop, certainly for offshore work, is mast stability. The additional stay, and running back stays, add stability and redundancy. The mast is much less likely to be lost if one support snaps for whatever reason.
Hi Steven,
True, in fact I agree so much that I think all offshore boats should be so equipped:
John
I recently sold my Xc45. It was a solent rig set up, and had a pretty tall, powerful mast for a boat that size. The furling staysail was set on a 2:1 halyard on the inner stay. On three occasions in my first 2 years of cruising, when we had over 35 knots of wind on the bow, the furled staysail would unfurl from the top. Once when trying to motor around Cape Lindesnes in Norway, once when trying to get out of Rorvik en route to the Faroes, and once in a marina in Spain. Apart from the marina episode, both other episodes required crew to get onto a pitching foredeck to secure the situation. I thought it to be an unsafe rig. The high angle of the stay sail given the mast height on the Xc45 made it impossible to get an adequately tight furl at the top. I would add this to your list of Solent rig negatives.
Anthony
Hi Anthony,
I’m not sure it’s fair to hit the solent with that one since I think the problem you had with furling was more about having the staysail set flying on a two to one halyard so not able to get it tight enough for a good roll. We have never had any problems furling our staysail, or with it unrolling, but it’s set on fixed roller furler. My thinking is that sails that are set flying, even on a 2:1 halyard should not be left up once things get bumpy. Mind you Lindesnes is a nasty place that can test any furl!
Have an Outbound 46. Have a blade, 130 and a parasailor. Have expandable cf pole. The parasailor virtually never comes out of its bag. Find with no main and both head sails out can go nearly DDW. The Hydrovane tracts fine with this set up at all wind speeds . I can roll up or out either headsail as conditions require in a second or two. Can sail the boat by myself and not leave the cockpit. Allows me safety so even at night can sail the boat near its potential not being scared of a line squall coming through. I went oz. up and in vectron so after 7 years minimal creep and no sag. Windward Dyneema runner is used only to prevent mast pumping when it occurs. Rig is tuned for the solent with a little backstay on. Genny stay is tuned with a slight bit of sag when no backstay on. Underway you tune genny stay with hydraulic backstay. You put more backstay on when you roll the genny. Then let if off if you’re going downwind.
I’ve had several cutters previously. Like many sail mom and pop which means you’re singling much of the time. Most people do a few passages each year but sail frequently once cruising grounds are reached. With a cutter found we got lazy. Handling 3 sheets plus mainsail shape controls means you put the coffee or drink down frequently. So for short hops may even power sail not wanting to deal with tacking 3 sails. Having the solent means you put the coffee on with the bride asleep. Leave under sail. Get your coffee. Have breakfast when she wakes up.
Before passage rig our removable inner dyneema storm jib stay and sheets. Running backs line up to its stay. With third reef on the main ready to go and the stormjib deployable by one with no bother that’s great. Having that inner stay up means like with the genny you need to roll up the solent to tack but you very rarely tack on passage. Very much happier with the solent than the cutter rig for mom and pop sailing.
Hi Lee,
Great analysis, thanks. That said, I think the solent to cutter choice is more about where sailing and how than mom and pop. Back in the day we were doing huge offshore miles just the two of us and the cutter rig was great. Now days with more inshore sailing a sloop or solent has a lot to recommend it and I would say that might be age independent. For example, I’m pretty sure I’m going to end up with a sloop for my geriatric boat.
Sorry to hear that Anthony. On 69 Outbounds have never heard that happening. Must be particular to the boat or just insufficient angle of halyard to stay. Think that’s a generic problem with any roller furling headsail not related to the type of rig.
John curious as to why you left out split rigs in your analysis? For the cruising sailor they still have desirable characteristics.
Hi Lee,
I didn’t get into split rigs for two reasons, first off I’m not a fan of ketches and second I wanted this to be manageable so I kept it fundamentally about the foretriangle. I find if I widen the subject too far for a given article it just turns to mush with too many variables and qualifications to be useful.
Hi John,
I would hope, with your writing, that someone would start building a true cutter (mast almost amidships) once again. I do not know of any in production, but it is not really a loop I am in, nor have I noticed any one-offs lately.
It is my take that the term “cutter”, as a boat description, has evolved into a romantic term that gets bandied about with little regard to an agreed upon definition: hence the recourse to the awkward “true cutter”. Many of the sailboats that call themselves cutters are more accurately described, to my mind, as double head-sail sloops (mast farther forward). This is not just a splitting of hairs as on boats my size (40 feet) with the mast almost amidships, I can successfully fly both headsails going to wind (jib topsail over a low clewed staysail) whereas a double headsail sloop (in a similar boat length) has trouble doing so. Its J is just too short (with the mast forward like it is) and the sails set too close to each other and turbulence results slowing down the boat. I have sailed next to double head-sail sloops who have called me on the radio to ask for suggestions as to why they slow down when they fly their staysail. My observation is that their J is just too small to allow for good clean air to work on both head-sails until the boat overall gets large. They go faster flying only one head-sail.
I would suggest that the Tayana pictured in the article can fly two head-sails together as pictured because of its overall length (52 feet) which also lengthens the J and allows both head-sails to works with clean air. I would also call the Tayana pictured in the article a double head-sail sloop, or a cutter rigged sloop, but not a cutter: its mast is just too far forward.
Random thoughts, my best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Hi Dick,
As before, we will have to agree to disagree on that one since I don’t think that whether or not a boat is a cutter is governed by mast position.
More on that here: https://www.morganscloud.com/2015/09/17/12-reasons-the-cutter-is-a-great-offshore-voyaging-rig/
As to why boats slow down with the staysail, I think it’s a lot more about poor trim and setup (usually not having the tracks in the right place) than foretriangle size. The bottom line is that most cruisers, these days when few have raced, are pretty bad at sail trim and trimming a cutter well does take more skill than a sloop. The other problem is sailmakers who don’t understand cutters and saddle their clients with low cut genoas that will never work well with a staysail.
More on how to set up a cutter right: https://www.morganscloud.com/2015/10/04/cutter-rig-optimizing-andor-converting/
All that said, I totally agree that it’s sad that cutters are dying out given that it’s still the rig that rules offshore, particularly short handed.
So what is the ideal J and J2 relationship in percentage?
And mast set more amidship- in what percentage? Say 40% of LOD?
Hi Taras,
Interesting question and I suspect it changes with boat length.
I do not know ideal, but years ago I worked out my mast position and (from memory) it was 47% back from the bow on a 40-foot LOD (Valiant 42). That said my boat has a substantial anchor platform that kicks the forestay out ~~2 feet which results in a larger J. I will try and check out those figures.
This design has proved “ideal” for me and I have not wished the mast to be elsewhere. My J length allows enough room for both headsails to work together synergistically (higher clewed jib topsail and lower clewed staysail). It is my very casual observation that this may be about the lower boat length that allows both sails to fly together going upwind without generating turbulence resulting from the sails being too close
together.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Hi Taras,
Sorry, just realized I misunderstood your question.
You will find the answer in our cutter optimization chapter:
https://www.morganscloud.com/2015/10/04/cutter-rig-optimizing-andor-converting/
I also have an Outbound 46. I concur with Lee Corwin’s comments above. I don’t have a light air sail and have missed this on a few occasions only. Downwind I use poled out Genoa and Solent to leeward – all three sails flying. This works up to almost 160 degrees true wind angle. The result is a very stable boat with minimal roll. I have secondary winches installed to facilitate more sail configurations than the standard OB46 which has primaries only. I also have a high wind staysail on a removable furling stay, which is set up for long offshore passages. The Solent rig can be easily configured for all points of sailing in winds from 5-45 knots with minimal effort and no heroics with hanked on sails, which is simply not an option for me and my wife! I agree with your pros and cons of the Solent rig – there is always a compromise. Yawing at anchor in high winds is definitely a negative and I’m planning to get a FinDelta anchor riding sail. The risk of high wind unfurling the headsails is not an issue with the OB46.
Hi Chris,
That makes sense. Based on our own experience with a jib top and main downwind, which would be probably be about the same area, we can’t really sail well until the true wind hits 12-14 knots and a bit more in swell. At lower windspeed there’s nothing for it but the spinnaker and hotter angles.
You have a bit higher SA/D ratio than us, so I’m guessing you can make it work at 10-12 true, at least in smooth water, but after that it’s either a light air sail or the motor. I have to confess that as we age the latter often happens before the former.
I would also guess that when you say 45 knots you are referring to a storm jib set on an internal stay as I can’t see the solent and main standing to that, except for a gust or two, or maybe downwind.
John, your comments are spot on of course. When I said 5 to 45 knots, I was referring to the versatility of the rig and the ease of setup. 12-14 kn is the lower limit for downwind with both headsails flying. Upwind on flat water we get 5kn boatspeed in 5kn wind. Recently, a 50kn front was chasing me up the NSW coast. I put in 3 reefs and set the pole in readiness. We ran with just 3 reefs for a few hours until it eased to 35kn, then let out a small triangle of headsail. AP steered the whole way.
Hi Chris,
Thanks for confirmation on the downwind lower limit.
And it’s good to hear, once again, that the boat will track well with just the main in those conditions. I really do think that the fixation we see these days on sailing off the wind with just headsails is a lot because so many boats don’t track well and so people gravitate to taking the main down in an attempt to fix that. I still believe that’s not a good habit:
https://www.morganscloud.com/2014/11/17/your-mainsail-is-your-friend/
Hi John,
One of the advances in safety most appreciated over the years on Alchemy was to get rid of the aluminum spinnaker pole and to buy a carbon fiber whisker pole (I do not own a symmetrical spinnaker). The alum pole was just a beast, sized to racing rules, and scared me when handling on the foredeck before it was adequately secured, especially offshore in swells. The cf pole weighs just over 14 lbs/6.5kg and is sized to stretch my jib topsail out fully.
It seemed outrageously expensive at the time as it needed to be custom made, but this was 15-20 years ago and I know that cf tubing is much easier to come by these days.
In any case, it was money well spent, as I felt much safer deploying the pole and we found that we used to pole far more often. I have found many cruising couples wary of a pole and nervous enough so they rarely use it, in large part because they find the aluminum pole a challenge. This is a shame, as with a cf pole, added to Colin’s fine article on downwind wing and wing sailing in years past on these pages, using a pole can become a doddle.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Ps. Agree that extension poles are unwise buys (I have owned two, push button and line control).
Hi Dick,
I agree on carbon poles: don’t leave home without one!
I love the solent arrangement on our Outbound 44. Ours has high cut 125 Genoa and low cut 105 jib. For offshore work we always hank on the storm jib to our removable inner stay and much like Lee, have three reefs available on the main. The benefit of a dedicated storm jib, rather than the dual purpose staysail we had on our previous Crealock is I believe very significant.
We also have a reacher on it’s own furler as well as an assymetrical – so we’ve got the bases covered!
On our last trans-atlantic, we had great success (a 2 day run) with reacher ‘poled out’ on the boom to starboard (with main with 2 reefs), genoa poled out to port and storm jib held tight amidships (to reduce roll)! The combinations are endless!
Cheers!
Saga 43 owner for the past 20 yrs here. We love our Solent rig and I’ve added an inner “storm” jib on a free furler that’s easy to hoist on a 2:1 halyard. The head of that sail aligns nicely with the head of a double reefed main which seems to reduce the need for runners.
With the little jib sheeting to the self tacking track it’s also a perfect sail for harbor tours (lots of tacking) with inexperienced (nervous) guests aboard.
John, you’re right on the money with the headstay tuning comment. I’ve set us up so the inner forestay is as tight as possible but that means the genoa stay has quite a bit of sag. Not a big issue off the wind but when closehauled under our 100% jib the genoa does bounce around too much.
I’d say the main downside to the Solent rig is the large amount of windage far forward which exacerbates sailing back and forth at anchor. But the Saga is nicely set up with twin anchor rollers and dropping the secondary anchor, even on short scope, quiets the boat immediately.
Keep the great articles coming, John!
Hi Roger,
That makes sense, and I agree a staysail is a great “harbour tour” sail.
Hi John,
Thanks for the great analysis. I have sailed on plenty of sloop rigged club boats and seen the limitations you describe firsthand. I’ve sailed most of my offshore miles on a cutter rigged J42 with a yankee foresail and a blade staysail. Your article helps me better understand why this rig is so versatile.
I am under contract for a new Boreal 47 which has a low cut genoa and a blade staysail. What are the pluses and minuses of rigging a Boreal 47 low cut genoa vs a yankee ? Why is running w both low cut sails not advised? I assume you would characterize the Boreal 47 a solent rig, correct?
Thanks,
David
Hi David,
The boreal is a special case, being neither cutter, or really a solent since the staysail is further back, but I guess closer to the latter than the former.
I have long wondered how the boat would do as a full on cutter and have a feeling that it would be an improvement, at least for offshore work. That said, it would take quite a few changes including staysail tracks and moving the runner terminations points forward to make it work well, as well as a sailmaker who was fully committed to designing a really good staysail and yankee to work together.
The benefits would be many including getting rid of most of the overlap on the genoa while actually increasing area up wind and close reaching in light air, as well as all the other stuff I detail in the cutter articles: https://www.morganscloud.com/2015/09/17/12-reasons-the-cutter-is-a-great-offshore-voyaging-rig/
I did talk it over with the JFs when I visited the yard and neither were keen on it. Given that, if it were me, I would not push them into it. The point being that to do this right would take their enthusiastic participation.
As to the mainsail downwind, my thinking is here:https://www.morganscloud.com/2014/11/17/your-mainsail-is-your-friend/
It also looks like turning a Boréal into a true cutter to John’s requirements would require moving the foot of the inner forestay slightly to the aft. Not a minor change!
So sad that (in general, not specifically on a Boreal) it looks impossible to get the advantages of a true cutter while keeping a self-tacking staysail!
Hi Maxime,
Actually, I’m not a big fan of the self tacking staysail on the Boreal. My thinking is that a sail that size, particularly on a boat the size of the Boreal 44/47 is just not that hard to tack, so, if it were me, I would get rid of all the clutter of the self tacking track anyway.
Same happened with the Garcia Exploration 52.
Since #6 they have got rid of the self tacking staysail (which was too small) and installed a bigger jib instead. Jib + Code Zero is also a perfect combination for light winds.
https://i.imgur.com/UKw0uVx.jpg
Wow, this is my kind of sailing!
(and the on-roof jackline looks great)
Thank you for the information! It looks like they have kept the genoa-intended track, but it’s probably less of an issue, since this is not a true cutter, and you don’t often sail upwind with the jib on flat water(?).
I have a removable inner solent stay, which we keep rigged offshore. Hanked on solent jib and storm jib. But for cruising among BC islands, the solent stay most of the time is back at the mast because my Morgan 382 needs the bigger jib in light inshore winds and there is no way to short tack with the solent stay in place. (Ted Brewer designed sail plans to make the boat a cutter, but very few have ever been so rigged.) We have inner and outer tracks. If and when we go offshore again, I may put the solent jib on a permanent furler for all the reasons you discuss. Anyway, your discussion of blades reminded me of my one disappointment with the rig on which perhaps you can comment. I told my sailmaker I wanted a blade for the solent jib. He told me could not make it work and would have to make it a higher cut, very much like the Outbound solent. He said that was because I was going to sheet it to the inner track, which begins just behind the aft lower shroud. To use a blade, I would have to move the sheeting point forward. He is a very good sailmaker and I trust his designs. Now, having lost a lot of solent sail area, I wish I had figured how to put in a forward sheeting point. Nonetheless, I generally like the arrangement for inshore sailing, where the genoa is primary our headsail, but having the solent available makes long days tacking upwind in anything above 15 knots a joy. I hate partially rolled in furling genoas.
Hi Terence,
Yes, your sailmaker is right, cutting the jib with a lower clew requires moving the sheet lead forward, so, in your case, it would have required extending the track.
On the genoa inshore, this is, as you have found, probably the best bet for your boat since she is comparatively short rigged and so, as you say, a blade just won’t be enough sail area, particularly in BC where I understand the winds are light much of the time.
Definitely worth exploring making her a cutter for offshore work though.
See our three chapters on the cutter rig for tips on that: https://www.morganscloud.com/2015/09/17/12-reasons-the-cutter-is-a-great-offshore-voyaging-rig/
John
A much appreciated article; I’ve spent a lot of time researching many views and ideas on the foresail enigma and I was delighted to read that I had stumbled to an identical conclusion to the one you had reached via decades of real world experience.
My Adams 40 was always set up as a true cutter, but it came with a sodding great 130% genoa on a furler that I’m not fond of at all and I’m definitely replacing with a high cut jib. The staysail is hanked on and there is a storm sail which looks good. The staysail track is nice and tight and it trims well.
But currently there is nothing forward of the main furler, nothing to mount a true downwind sail on. I’m planning on adding that (and extending the bow roller a bit) soon.
My question is this; for a specialised downwind sail the obvious choice is a cruising code zero. On the other hand I’m also attracted to the idea of a twin ‘blue water runner’. A couple of variations are around but the best described one is this :
https://wavetrain.net/2018/02/12/elvstrom-blue-water-runner-modern-interpretation-of-downwind-twin-headsails/
Which would appeal to you more?
Hi Philip,
Definitely go with the code zero/asymmetric spinnaker type. You will already have a great rig for running off when the wind is up using the jib top and main so buying another running rig that would not be as efficient as an asymmetric spinnaker in light air would be a waste of money.
Also, I’m simply not a fan of those downwind rigs for a whole bunch of reasons—probably should write an article on that. But the short version is that they are really a hang over from the old days when boats needed twin jibs—or “twin spinnakers” as they were called then—to self steer in the trades. Today they have been obsoleted by advances in cruising running and reaching sails.
Today the only good reason for the twin jib set up, that I can think of, is on boats with radically swept back spreaders that can’t let the main out enough on a run.
If you read Charlie’s article between the lines you can pick up on many of the problems with the twin jib rig. Note that he points out that you will need twin poles, or at least some kluge using the boom to pole out one side.
More here on why sailing without the main up is not a good idea: https://www.morganscloud.com/2014/11/17/your-mainsail-is-your-friend/
Thanks.
I think I’ve come to rely on you for my ultimate sanity check.
Cheers
Yikes, I hope I can live up to that!
Hi all,
I am curious whether others share my instinctual (meaning I have a hard time completely justifying it logically) wish to have some main deployed when underway. I write this presently as there is this talk of running under just tandem headsails.
I certainly have operated Alchemy under just a headsail. In fact, I enjoy those days when coastal cruising and on a day hop when we just roll out the jib or, better yet, deploy the asym in light air and leave the mainsail furled and covered.
That said any longer sail, and any sail overnight or where there might be unsettled weather, I always want to have the mainsail up, at least part way. Even if I choose to not have the main working very hard, I might pull it up and set the third reef. As soon as I do this, I am much happier and feel like I am better prepared for surprises.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Hi Dick,
I don’t call that instinctual, I call it good seamanship based on the many miles you have sailed. I only needed to wrestle to hoist the main in a hurry offshore in big breeze and waves a couple of times to get the message.
What really scares me is when I see boats offshore sailing along with just a jib and the sail cover still on, and the main halyard not even attached. On one day sail along the Nova Scotia coast in 25 knots with a good 2-3 meter sea running I saw three boats doing this. If they need the main in a hurry they are truly and utterly screwed as they wrestle to get the cover off standing on top of the cabin top with nothing but a swinging boom to hold onto, and obstructed by cockpit enclosures and way too many solar panels on a wildly pitching boat—that’s how tragedies happen.
https://www.morganscloud.com/2014/11/17/your-mainsail-is-your-friend/
Roll-furl vs hank-on is always an interesting q. If I’ve understood this discussion the cutter seems to offer a sweet spot configuration: Roller jib and hank-on staysail. The rolled up jib is smaller than a rolled genoa so presents less windage. And, it’s easier to go forward to handle a hank-on staysail because you don’t have to go so far forward.
Hi PD,
True, but there are also benefits (and tradeoffs) to putting the staysail on a roller furler too. See Dick’s and my comments earlier in the thread.
Great article John, thank you. My Niagara 35 came to me with a detachable Solent ‘bob stay’ that got me making a lot of enquiries during our refit. As a long-time cat boat sailor, a foresail, let alone two of them, presents new challenges. We have only a little experience testing this rig since recommissioning late last year. We have a 90 and 140 jib for the roller furling headfoil. The 90 has proven to be enough in last summer’s brisk winds around CapeBreton. I have a hank-on tiny storm jib for the Solent stay and assumed that would be the stay’s main purpose. Since reading this article I am thinking perhaps to get (Or recut my 90) a hank on blade for the Solent stay and leave the 140 on the roller for light air. And to use both Wing on wing with no main, DDW. As a 2 handed geriatric crew we will not carry a poled spinnaker. BTW our removable bob stay has a quick release shackle to deck, with turnbuckle. I assume that enables tuning the rig when Solent Sail is in use. Thanks again. AAC has given me a lot of ideas and info during my refit, and it continues.
Hi Gregory,
I’m a bit confused by the terms in your comment. To me a “bob stay” is one running from the waterline to the end of a bow sprit. Also, how far back is the the inner stay? To be a solent it needs to be right forward and go close to the top of the mast. If it’s further back than that it’s an inner forestay and the sail set on it is a staysail not a solent. I’m not just being pedantic here, since which it is has a lot of effect on how to use it and the right sails to have.
Also, I would not recommend running off with two headsails. Much better and easier on your boat with straight spreaders to use the main on one side and poled out jib on the other. https://www.morganscloud.com/2014/11/17/your-mainsail-is-your-friend/
Ha!! I’m certain that I’m the guy Andy is talking about at the beginning of the clip. He and I were hanging out last summer, I believe aboard Ice Bear in Lunenburg, when we had the discussion about whisker poles. Well, I took his advice and found an appropriately sized $100 aluminum pole.
I’ve finally filled a big gap in my downwind sailing arsenal, and it’s been fantastic to have aboard! That said, you guys are right about there being a learning curve, and I’m glad it’s an inexpensive pole I’m bashing about, rather than one that was really not in the budget to begin with. When the time comes to upgrade to carbon, I’ll be more confident I’m bringing the right pole aboard.
-Ed
Hi Ed,
Busted! Seriously, good call.
Am ever so slightly surprised that ketch rigged boats weren’t considered in an article comparing rig benefits for cruising boats. Am I missing something?
Hi Peter,
See this comment: https://www.morganscloud.com/2020/05/28/cruising-rigs-sloop-cutter-or-solent/comment-page-1/#comment-293318
Hi Peter,
I never had a ketch, but I had a yawl for 15+ years and have now had a true cutter for 20 years.
I consider split-rigs as existing, in large part, as a reflection of the gear that was in use in days past. The split-rig argument for a simpler, more user friendly, array of sails reflects old gear. Modern equipment makes handling sail area on spars a doddle compared to 40 years ago. I would never return to my old yawl for offshore sailing as on the cutter, with modern equipment, the ability to carry large sails and then to reduce sail to meet conditions is so very easy.
In addition to the ease that modern equipment allows for larger sail handling, there is, with two masts, the rigging/spar inspection, maintenance and expense which approaches almost double a single mast rig. There is enough that can go wrong without doubling the chances. Also, I had all that “stuff” aft that always seem to be in the way, especially at anchor. My friends with ketches felt similarly even as they loved their boats.
I also loved our yawl in most ways and for coastal cruising it checked most of the boxes for me and my family. I don’t miss it, however, except those moments when I think fondly of that beautiful old yawl sitting at anchor with me gazing at it as I row away in our dinghy.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Hi Dick,
I did a bunch of offshore miles in a ketch (three races to Bermuda and a bunch of other stuff) and I’m 100% with you.
On that boat we crew used to say “best use of this second mast is to hang a bunch of bananas on…and everyone knows that bananas on a boat are bad luck.”
As you say, ketches made sense before reliable roller furling jibs, and powerful multi speed self tailing winches, but today they are largely obsolete.
Fun fact: Yawls only came to be because the old CCA rule did not measure the area of mizzen staysails so it was a rule cheat feature. The other thing the CAA rule saddled us with was overlapping genoas, again because the overlap was not counted. I can remember seeing boats with 170% genoas!
Hi John,
Interesting fun fact: thanks for sharing. Never heard that bananas on board were bad luck.
One season I sailed my yawl with no mizzen (my mizzen was bigger than most yawls and was 12% of the sail plan if I remember correctly: still a smaller sail compared to ketches). I do not remember missing it in most sailing (sailing characteristics seemed largely unchanged) except for the occasional fun of flying the mizzen staysail and throttling down to jib and jigger. I do miss the looks and I do miss how steady she was at anchor with the mizzen out.
I finally determined that the mizzen mast was a great place for the radar and for mounting a soft pleasant down-light for cockpit illumination.
My best, Dick
Hi Dick
I disliked my mizzen mast so much that I left it behind in a boatyard in Guernsey. Could it still be there ? This was my second ketch in a row. It was a time, 1984, that most second hand steel boats in Europe were ketch rigged. And I really wanted a steel boat to go south in.
The space between the mast and the bow was big enough to support an existing cutter rig so I reasoned that I could dispense with the clutter aft. I bought a longer boom and had a bigger main made. We seemed to cover just as many miles every 24 hours for a lot less effort. And when we shredded the new main and reverted to the old sail the daily mileage still remained the same for the last 10,000 miles.
They used to say there are three things you don’t want on a yacht: an umbrella, a stepladder and a naval officer. I would rather have an umbrella than a mizzen mast.
Best
Mark
Hi Mark,
Good thought about switching the words.
And interesting story of your not missing your mizzen on a ketch where the sail area is more significant than a yawl. And creative thinking on extending the boom.
Too many of us (I believe) are hesitant to make changes and are willing to accept that the boat as it came to us was the way it should be.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Hi Dick,
That’s a good point, although on the flip side I have seen some truly horrible and ill advised owner modifications!
Hi Mark,
That makes sense. What about a wheelbarrow?
Thanks for pointing out the advantages of lowering cut of the Solent sail on the Outbound 46 you pictured. That’s the actual boat I’m in the process of buying and she has the same sail on her now, though not in anywhere near as good shape.
Hi Lisa,
That’s fun. Also looked like that boat is pretty well tricked out by an owner who appreciates her performance.
When I left the Pacific NW in 2011 heading for NZ my cutter rig had a hank on staysail and consequently only got used occasionally when conditions got rough. In 2013 I changed to roller furling on the staysail and now I use the staysail a lot. Because of the relatively small size of the staysail the loads on the furling line are small which means it furls very easily so I can quickly add or subtract it from the sail plan. It is also a great sail for coastal work where the destination is directly upwind and you are trying to get there before dark; you can make good speed and progress, at low heel angles by motor sailing far enough off the wind (30 degrees on this boat) to keep a closely sheeted staysail full. This is 2-3 knots faster than motoring directly into the wind. If anyone has a cutter rig and still has a hank on staysail you will use and enjoy the sail much more if you change to roller furling. It was one of the few boat jobs I have done that came under budget – I did most of the work myself and the cost of the Furler was less than I expected since a smaller Furler is perfectly adequate (based on the square footage of the sail even allowing for using the sail in high wind speeds)
Hi Martin,
That is pretty much exactly our experience.
Hi John,
just a quick note; a faster boat is, usually, also a more comfortable boat…..
Jorn
Hi Jorn,
Please explain further your thinking that a faster boat is generally a more comfortable boat.
I can think of many boats that are fast, but that I would not want to be offshore on them. Fast too often means light weight, quick motion and increased work to run offshore: there are exceptions surely, but too often I believe that is what occurs when speed is an excessively important criterion. I generally think moderation and balance in all design provides the best combination for crossing oceans.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Dick
I may be putting the wrong words into Jorn’s mouth but he may have meant to imply ” a comfortable boat is a fast boat ”
Humbly
Mark
John,
As beam narrows would the efficacy of a cutter be in question?
I presume narrow beam reduces possible sheeting angles – would this be a problem?
Hi Henry,
Not unless it was extreme. For example the Morgan’s Cloud is comparatively narrow for her length 56/15 but the jib top sheet leads are still a good foot inboard.
And back in the day, particularly in the UK under the old RORC rule, these we a lot of very narrow cutters that sailed well.
Morgan’s Cloud’s beam/length ratio is 0.27.
I was wondering how cutters might work on the sort of hull’s that Steve Dashew has promoted with B/L ratio’s around 0.22 – 0.23.
And, yes of course there was Illingworth’s Myth of Malham which had a B/L ratio of 0.25 and was a very successful racer. Illingworth obviously was a big fan of offshore racing cutters.
Hi Henry,
I would think a cutter could be done on one of Steve’s boats, but a bigger question would be if it would be the best approach. That brings in all the issues of mast position and whether or not to make the boat a ketch, which Steve did with his later and larger sailboats. Huge number of variables there. Given that Steve went with very large roach main and mizen and a small fractional foretriangle I don’t think a cutter makes sense.
It’s also worth knowing that Steve’s boats are not rigged to perform particularly well in light air. Rather, his design strategy was to motor in those conditions. He also relied heavily on asymmetric sails to add area reaching. And his later boats were so fast with big breeze that they never sailed on a run, which again changes things.
https://setsail.com/beowulf-the-ultimate-short-handed-cruiser-updated-march-2014/
John,
Yes, he doesn’t like moving much under 10 knots under any conditions. 🙂
And his yachts were generally underpowered. Apart from Beowolf and Sundeer 64 most of his boats had S/D ratios under 18.
John and Phyllis,
New to AAC. Approaching 86. As soon as this blasted virus problem is solved with a proven vaccine, I’m considering scaling down land living, getting a boat that I anticipate will be mostly solo sailing and devoting at least a year getting to know her in as many different situations as possible. Was wondering what you would suggest — you answered w/out a question with your comment:
“. . . I’m pretty sure I’m going to end up with a sloop for my geriatric boat.” I laughed outloud!
With a limited budget, now to determine best size for solo “geriatric” sailing. Being realistic and considering age, doubtful to be world wide, however, . . . who knows what the seas hold? Perhaps you have written on this and I’ll be looking. Am really enjoying your writings as well as reader comments. Thanks.
Hi Alexis,
We have an entire online book with our thinking on buying a boat: https://www.morganscloud.com/category/boat-design-selection/book-how-to-buy-a-cruising-boat/
It does need a bit of cleaning up—next winter’s project—but you will still find a huge amount to help you decide which boat is right for you.
You may also find the Adventure 40 series of interest: https://www.morganscloud.com/category/boat-design-selection/adventure-40/