We have long used roller furling on Morgan’s Cloud and would not be without it. The thought of changing headsails that can weigh over 100-pounds dry, and far more wet, doublehanded on a wildly tossing foredeck, every time the wind changes, gives me the horrors. I served my time as bowman on an ocean racer and I’m not going back!
That said, later in this book you will find a chapter by Lane Finley on the benefits of traditional hanked-on sails over roller furling. As Lane so rightly points out, roller furling is not without its disadvantages. Here is how we manage those disadvantages and the compromises we make:
(we have webbing loops sewn on the luff that can be captured as the sail comes down.)
This sounds like a great idea John, for all roller furling sails. How do capture the loops as you lower the sails and can you give us a more detailed description as to how many loops and extra cost from the sail maker?
Hi Ken,
If you go through the slideshow at the bottom of the post, I have more detail there. Mouse over the image to see the cations. The loops are about every meter on the luff.
As to cost, it was not broken down in the quote for the sails, but I can’t imagine it would be very much.
Thanks John, I missed the captions.
John, You describe our sail combo almost exactly and we feel similarly about all its advantages. I would re-emphasize the pluses of having a higher clewed jib, a consideration that does not come up enough in discussions with sailmakers. One area we have yet to solve is making the leach adjustment line accessibly. We ran it around the clew and on down along the foot, but not quite far enough. Any better way? Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Hi Dick,
I agree, high cut sails have many advantages other than just being better to roller reef. One is that they are way faster with less healing, on a reach than low cut sails, due to the lead being further aft which results in more projected area and better reaching shape.
John et Al, for a yacht above the 25k lbs threshold, what would be your thoughts about a combination of a furling yankee at the front, and a hank-on staysail (in fact, two: one for lighter airs and another for when it is blowing)?
Hi Alex,
“Morgan’s Cloud” had a hanked on staysail when I bought her, and it worked fine. Having said that, I still prefer having both staysail and yankee on furlers. The reason, other than my own laziness, is that we can reef both together to balance things up.
I would not bother with a light air staysail since it could not be any bigger than the normal one due to the lower shrouds. And since we only have to reef the staysail to about 70% size to go to gale force, I don’t think there would be much benefit in a heavy air staysail cut to that size. In short, more trouble and expense than it would be worth.
John, Do you use a cruising laminate cloth primarily for sail shape or weight of the sail? On my 40 foot cutter I have gone back and forth with my primary concern being sail shape rather than weight of sail on my smaller boat. I would also be interested in what you see as the longevity hit one takes using cruising laminate vs Dacron.
Thanks, Dick
Hi Dick,
We choose and pay for laminates for shape and speed reasons, not weight. Do keep in mind though that just choosing a laminate is not enough. To get the full benefit you need to have radial cut sails made by someone that knows how to get the best out of both technologies.
As to longevity. We have been using radial cut sails made from laminates for 20 years and have found that for us they last longer than cross cut sails from woven material. But understand that we retire our sails when they no longer set well, not when they blow up. As a long term racing sailor and ex-sailmaker, I just can’t stand sailing with bagged out sails. I also firmly believe that speed=safety.
Our last set went about 40,000 miles of cruising, which probably means about 25,000 miles of actual sailing since, when in the north, where its either calm or blowing like hell, we tend to motor a lot. The yankee tends to wear out first, from the strain of roller reefing.
Hi John,
Very interesting reading on rigging and fore sails. I wonder how you adjust the pressure on your two fore stays? I ask because I have often seen cutters with two furling head sails having problems here. Most of the pressure seems to be loaded on the front stay while the inner stay is slack. When tacking the inner stay is zagging and this also makes influence on the bending of the mast and the shape of the mainsail .
I also think you and Lane should remember that you have more seaworthy boats than most modern boats. The modern charter boats of Europe are difficult on the front deck. By safety reasons they need furling sails.
I also think that Alex T is pointing at an interesting combination of rigging. Ingvar Hansson, inventor of Seldens Furlex system and olympic gold medalist in sailing, has spooken to me on the same opinion as Alex T, both furling head sail and hanked on small head sails.
Hi Svein,
A very good point. Proper rig tuning is even more important on a cutter than it is a sloop, and more difficult too.
Having said that, we don’t have any problems in this regard. We use a hydraulic backstay adjuster to tension the permanent backstays and this in turn adjusts the tension and sag on the yankee roller furler. More wind, more tension, which also bends the mast, which flattens to main too.
The tension on the staysail stay is controlled with our running backstays that lead to powerful two speed winches with 2:1 whips. As the wind increases we up the tension on the runners which tightens the staysail stay.
To make all this work, you have to get the relationship between the staysail and head stays right in conjunction with mast blocking at the partners (affects pre-bend in the mast) and the tension on the forward and aft lowers. In short, its a bit of an art, but getting it right pays huge dividends in speed and reduces healing.
Good Morning All,
I realized from the comments that I had goofed and not included any photograph that showed overall how “Morgan’s Cloud” is rigged. I have now added one at the beginning of the slideshow.
I find myself increasing unhappy with Sakari’s large and low cut genoa. witha heavy wind hank on staysail, ona removable stay. I look foward to the time when I can financially justify retiring the genoa and making a change.
Re dirty secrets – my Volvo Penta does similar behaviour, especially when family sailing with a light crew who want to be anchored for supper before bedtime!
Hi Paul
One area that I’ve always found roller genoas to be weak is when poled out for downwind running. If you unfurl them entirely the shape is bad and can unbalance the boat, to counteract which you end up reefing the sail to improve the shape!
A 100% yankee behaves beautifully off the wind, good shape and with the pole off the shrouds. The yankee cut is inherently stable, and there’s less chafe on the foot and the pulpit.
As John points out, in open waters the yankee performs well, and it’s only in really light conditions that a genoa has an advantage.
Best wishes
Colin
Colin, You are right on to make that observation. Another plus to the higher clew is that when poled out, the pole is very unlikely to roll into the water as it is at the height of the clew. When wind is aft and shifty, we often leave our pole out for days at a time (carbon fibre) going from a wing & wing on one side to an empty pole and a broad reach on the other. This is made more possible as the pole is so high and not likely to dip its tip into the water. Dick
Hi Colin and Dick,
Really good points. You just can’t beat a poled out yankee jib down wind, no chafe, easy to control, stable, easy to shorten down (just roll up a bit and let the pole forward).
On “Morgan’s Cloud” we need about 13 knots of true wind to make it work with a full main. Below that we either tack down wind with our asymmetrical spinnaker, or motor.
Hi John,
You made the comment about mast chocking (“To make all this work, you have to get the relationship between the staysail and head stays right in conjunction with mast blocking at the partners (affects pre-bend in the mast) and the tension on the forward and aft lowers.”) I know that you use Spartite, and we are soon stepping our new Formula Marine mast for the first time. From what you say does that mean that you cannot make the spartite chock up until the mast is fully set up and tuned?
And do you manage to reuse your chock after stepping, or does it get destroyed by the yard when they pull the spar?
Regards,
Andrew
Hi Andy,
Yes, that’s right, we fully tune the mast with it loose at the partners (hole through the deck). If you do it the other way round you will almost certainly get the pre-bend wrong, and if you do that, tuning the rig will be a nightmare and never come out right. I like to see at least 1/2 a mast diameter of pre-bend with the back stay pressure at about 70%. Of course your mainsail needs to be cut to accommodate this.
The other reason to do this is that it is extremely unlikely that the partners are exactly in the center of the boat. So if you chock the mast in the center it will either be leaning over one way or another, or out of column.
Yikes, tuning is a whole new series of posts!
And yes, we reuse the Spartite chocks. The key is plenty of petroleum jelly on everything before you pour.
Hi John,
On our last boat we had a Handy lock 02 series by Johnson Marine on the hank on stay and was great for adjustable tension on the stay. Would use the back stay tension to properly tension head sail furler. My question is what do you think of a 02 series adjustable turnbuckle and could it work to tension a stay furler to its proper tension? Then one could use the running back stays to give final adjustment or not use them at all.
Cheers
Steve
Hi Steve,
This goes to the tuning issues I was talking about above. To get this right, you need to think of the rig as a whole and all the opposing forces acting on it. How you tension the staysail stay is pretty immaterial, as long as you can adjust its length easily during the tuning process. No amount of tension on the staysail stay will eliminate the need for runners because all you are doing is bending the mast forward in the middle. The trick is to get the balance between rake, pre-bend, and stay tension correct.
Dear John,
You touch on a pet project (likely futile) of mine when you feel obligated to insert “true” when you use the term “cutter” (photo caption). My goal is to return the definition of cutter to designate mast position rather than number of headsails. There are numerous differences that accrue with moving the mast aft (from sloop to cutter) which suggests keeping the distinction alive. Recently, most of the time I see the term cutter used; the reference is to a double headsail sloop.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy (a cutter)
Hi Dick, so true. You only get the maximum benefit of a double headsail rig once you move the mast back a bit. On “Morgan’s Cloud” the mast is 30″ further aft than on her two sister ships, which are ketches.
Having said that, I have seen the cutter concept carried too far, with the mast almost in the middle of the boat, which is a poor idea, in my view, as it makes the headsails too big and thereby sacrifices one of the big benefits of two headsails.
Hi Dick, I agree that the term “cutter” is not strictly correct for the sloop with two-stays taken down on the centre line in front of the mast. The definition of a cutter that I was taught is a sailing vessel with a single mast and two forward stays, where only the inner stay is structural in the sense that it is required to maintain the integrity of the rig. In a cutter, the forestay thus functions primarily as something on which to set jibs (and can be dispensed with when sailing, as required), while the inner stay is part of the mast-staying system (and thus is “permanent” and usually taken down to the stem). The two forward stays of a cutter therefore almost have the reverse functions of the two forward stays of a “slutter”. And it could be argued that the stepping of the cutter’s mast further aft than on an equivalent sloop necessarily follows from the foresail arrangements. All these things taken together of course contribute to the true cutters’ outstanding ability to heave-to properly and easily, a major factor in the their remarkable sea-keeping ability.
I should add that I do not imply criticism of modern large mainsail, non-overlapping foresail sloops, with or without inner forestays. The different rigs just excel in different areas, supporting the view yet again that in sailing most things are a compromise. Alan
Hi John,
What a great post and the comments have taken the discussion to a whole new level! I like what you have done on Morgan’s Child and totally understand the size issue. My yankee only weighs 50 pounds dry.
For a brief moment I was almost convinced I should change over to furling sails. However, I caught myself in time and gave myself a good slap in the face. It was a close thing but I will stay with my good old hank on sails for a while longer. I do love the simplicity and efficiency they provide.
Happy sailing!
Cheers
Lane
Hello, “Sea Return’s ” headsails, rig are similar to Morgan’s Cloud. We also share a sailmaker, which by the way, was crewing with me when “our ass was whipped ” racing to Bermuda. The ass whipping had more to do with a tactical mistake than boat speed but an AW just the same . Introductions aside, a lot of experience and best practices expressed . All excellent. I believe the most important point was omitted. Everything led to the cockpit , on furlers etc. nearly eliminates the need to go fore’d. That alone improves safety and the need to wake the off watch to reef. I have the added ease of a mast furler. Before condemning my mainsail furler understand the mainsail has a roach, vertical battens, and rarely snarls if operated by the same me.
Alan, A very interesting and to me, new, derivation of the term cutter. You clearly have a historical perspective that has escaped my education. I am aware of the cutters you describe, but not from first hand experience. And I also agree with your last comments about the more modern sloop sail designs, especially when cranking in our large jib filled with wind. Thanks, Dick
If you can get past the fawning commentator, this tale about the consequences of loosening even a wash towel sized bit of roller furled sail during a major storm will give you pause.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hYtZrCRGd_c
Hi Richard,
Thanks for the link. Good point about the dangers of any amount of sail being loose in heavy weather. To date we have avoided any problems of that nature, even though we have had the roller furler on the stay in very strong winds several times. I think that the secret is being meticulous about furling it tight.
A big point that is missing from the video is the folly of running a rally from Newport to Bermuda at that time of year. Such a rally imposes a “must go” ethos on people, when the seamanlike thing to do if a decent window to get across the Stream never materialises is to blow the whole trip off and move your jumping off point south to Norfolk, or even better, south of Cape Hatteras.
Of course that does not help you if you are stupid enough to head out with a poor forecast in February.
Couldn’t agree more, John.
Hi John,
Our new boat, a Norseman 447, has roller furling – something new for us. The furling lines for both heads’ls run along the stanchion bases, and at the last stanchion make a nearly 180º turn back to the cockpit winch/cleat. I never liked the stanchions doing double duty here, but now I’m really not liking it when the wind pipes up and we roll in a reef on the 100% jib. It seems my diminuative furling line attached to my unprepared stanchions is exactly what I’m pulling against when I crank in on the sheet in 30 knots. I can’t wrap my head around the ubiquity of this frail set up, it doesn’t seem very sensible to me at all.
I’m considering options to relieve my stanchions of their second job. But the line diameter issue puzzles me. In your travels have you run into others as concerned about this issue as I am? Any solutions, thoughts you and others can offer?
Thanks very much!
Hi Ben,
You are right to be concerned. I think it’s fine to run the furling lines through stanchion mounted blocks until you get to the last one. But the last one should be replaced with a substantial block attached to a through bolted deck eye. The point being that the last stanchion is taking double the line load due to the 180 degree turn.
As to line diameter, you don’t say what diameters the lines are, but if it were me I would be using 3/8″ diameter lines, as long as that much line will fit on the drum. (We use 3/8 on our staysail and 1/2″ on our jib top, but our boat is nearly double the weight of the 447.) Not only are thicker lines stronger, they are also easier to handle.
Hope that helps.
Ben,
Absolutely, you are quite right to be worried in my estimation. It is one thing to have stanchion bases be used as fair-leads where the direction of pull is not changed significantly, but I would not wish most stanchion installations to be subject to the kind of pressure RF pennants can instill, especially when reefed and the jib starts flailing about.
With respect to rope size/type, the consideration is usually not strength, but chafe. Most ropes will have reasonable strength for the job, but I choose the largest line that will work with the drum size (which then gives you good strength and low stretch). When things are really ornery for a few days, it is RF pennant inspection that may get neglected so I want beef for extra safety. And really inspect your leads at all reasonably levels of drum fullness. The last thing anyone wants is for a reefed jib to be released suddenly in a blow with no easy way to bring it back in.
On Alchemy, we also have 2 roller furling headsails and love their multitude of options and ease of deployment from the cockpit. We have 90 degree turns on the deck sides for the RF pennants to be handled from the center of the cockpit just abaft the dodger, a very safe secure location. On the jib topsail I installed a small snubbing type winch on the toe rail. It is rarely used as a winch, but makes for a great turning block and with a couple of wraps allows total control of the RF pennant, going in or out or reefed. The staysail has a simple turning block on the toe rail.
I hope this helps.
Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Hi Dick,
Thanks for coming up on this. I missed your comment before I wrote mine. Could have saved myself the time if I had seen yours first!
Hi John,
As it is my first comment, first please let me thank you for this very comprehensive and knowledgeable site.
As I was following the Vendee Globe race, I watched this video by Destremeau that I’d like to share / 1st part (links at the end of the post). I have always done some extra rolls with the sheet when furling in, as I was taught to, in order to well stuck the sail. And the more the better ..
Now it says leaving a small triangle would be better (as long as you put good tension in the furling line and the sheets) and it makes sense. My guess is as the sail tightens in a little more through the forestay movements, I’ll need to take in a little more furling line to adjust the tension of the sheets and keep the triangle small. But the main plus for this method is, to my eyes, it looks much neater. Stupid, isn’t it ?
Any feed-back with these rolling techniques ?
#1 : http://www.vendeeglobe.org/fr/web-tv/33277 (English version)
#2 : http://www.vendeeglobe.org/fr/web-tv/33279 (French version)
Hi Benoît,
First off, thanks for the kind words.
I too watched Destremeau’s video and totally agree with him that properly furling roller furling sails is important and the common practice you see of rolling to the point that the sheet has multiple turns around the sail is a bad idea.
Our approach on Morgan’s Cloud is to keep rolling until we have a little more than half a turn on sheet around the sail, which seems to be the best of both worlds.
Why are pairs of furling headsails always in tandem? Why do we never see two side-by-side? Is there any merit in say having a large light genoa and a high cut yankee both ready to go and, equally important, ready to put away? Most of the time the yankee and stays’l would be used but when it drops below say 7 knots the yankee is furled and the bigger, lighter genoa deployed.
Hi Paul,
That’s an interesting question. In fact back 50 or so years ago quite a few boats tried two forestays side by side. The idea was to be able to hank on and hoist a new sail prior to dropping the other. If I remember correctly the problem with this was that the in-use stay deflected and rubbed against the lazy one, and I’m thinking the same thing would happen with side by side roller furlers. I think there was also a problem with keeping the tension balanced between the two.
Setting aside “Size Matters” for now (my boat is much smaller and even the aspiring boat is still smaller than MC) I wonder which is less expensive overall? Hank On requires more sails but they are each used less so should last longer. Roller reefing requires more gear and maintenance. I suppose the difference wouldn’t be significant in a cruiser’s total cost of ownership, still it might be interesting to compare.
Hi PD,
My guess would be that hank on would win on cost of ownership over time, every time.
Hi, John. Just about to replace the very worn Genoa furling line and not entirely sure what to use. Any suggestions? (in fact, have you ever thought about a whole article on what to use on all lines on a boat? I know you have suggestions all through the books, but sometimes finding your suggestions is hard (e.g. took me a while just to find the article on Lazy Jacks to see what you use there).
Hi Michael,
Any good quality Dacron (Polyester) double braid will work fine for furling lines. And we already have two full chapters on running rigging. Easy to find by scanning through the table of contents of the relevant online book: https://www.morganscloud.com/category/rigging-sails/book-sail-handling-rigging/
Also, if you are looking for specific information, try the search on the menu. If you put lazyjacks in the relevant articles come right up.
Thanks, John. In regards to the search, I try to use it all the time but don’t find it very useful. I think partly because it doesn’t show you what in the article gave cause for it to appear in the search results (highlight the words you searched on) and partly because a search is only as good as the initial knowledge of the searcher to be accurate in the search criteria (mine being limited on the subjects at hand). In regards to the chapters on rigging, my excuse here, which I am sure you will appreciate, is that at a certain age, the bits you forget about something you have recently learned far outweigh the bits you remember and this can mean whole chunks of gaps (such as forgetting certain chapters in one of the many books you have on the site). Anyway, I will try to do better. Thanks again.
Hi Michael,
I agree that the search is far from perfect. We were using Google, which in some ways was better, but was also full of advertising. So we are trying a new option, but that has disadvantages too.
That said, you can still use Google to search AAC. For example site:morganscloud.com lazyjacks will yield exactly what you are looking for.
Thanks, John.