We have come across a couple of Saga 43s in the last two years. I can’t say we have made a close evaluation, but they do seem like nice boats with good and moderate lines, that avoid the problems caused by excessive beam, particularly aft. The designer, Bob Perry, has a history of wholesome offshore boats under his belt going back to the classic Valiant 40.
Based on a brief tour of one Saga, the deck layout and fittings appeared seamanlike and the interior well thought out. The boat we were on had two heads, which is just a waste of space in a 43’ boat. Having said that, the forward head could easily be converted to a work shop and storage area, and the boat can also be bought in a single head configuration.
Both of the two owners we met said to stay away from some of the early Saga 43s with the very shallow draft option (no longer offered) and opt for a deeper keel.
This is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a cheap boat, but the prices they command on the second hand market do indicate that the boats are good value.
Hi John,
I just came across this evaluation and agree with your conclusions.
I had followed the design development of the Saga 43 for a year or so and went to the 1998 (9?) Annapolis boat show with the intention of seeing in depth the then new Saga 43 and perhaps moving to buy one for our live-aboard plans. The manufacturer was very accommodating and informative and I spent hours poking around the boat seeing most everything that did not need a tool to get to.
My conclusion: good design with some significant execution issues. I shared this with the manufacturer as he was so gracious and he wrote back saying they had made and were making improvements. At the show, we then went to a Valiant 42 and found the answers we were looking for in this more mature design and long run of construction. Our main concern in buying a used V-42 was speed and sailing ability and it has proved more than adequate for our needs though, as you correctly point out, a Saga 43 sails fast.
A few years later we dined on a new Saga 43 (in the Bahamas) whose owners had worked hand-in-hand with the manufacturer to get the boat they wanted: most or all of the concerns I had were well addressed and the owners indicated that the changes made were being incorporated in all the boats. Years later met up again in Turkey, and they continued to be very pleased with their boat. They reported impressive passage times.
I do not know how many were eventually made or how they have held up over the years, but I would suspect that a Saga 43 made after the bugs were exposed, would make an excellent used boat to buy and take its crew safely and fast most anywhere.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Hi Dick,
Thanks for the confirmation and added information on the boat. I got interested and took a look at the listings. The later models seem to be running around $200K which seems to indicate that they have held their value well.
The other thought I had is I wonder how many people who buy a 30-40 year old boat for a sub $100K price and then refit it, spend even more, when all is said and done, than for one of these Sagas. I know that was Poor Stupid Bob’s experience, when we adjust for inflation: https://www.morganscloud.com/2012/03/17/are-refits-worth-it/
I spoke with a former Saga 43 owner after I had a viewing of one I was considering for purchase. A couple of concerns were rudder bearing undersized, mast step not manufactured to design specs (builder’s fault not Bob’s) and a major keel/hull repair on a Pacific passage as the keel bolts loosened wreaking havoc. Another comment was the boat was a bit tender and does not track well requiring more attention than desirable on a boat making long passages, with the self-steering gear working overtime and the need to reef often. The owner did mention a racing background that influenced this purchase originally.
On the other hand I spoke with another person that sailed the Atlantic in both directions as delivery crew on a Saga 43 with great comments on the passages.
This boat does appear to be ocean capable, with some attention in specific areas, as the above passages indicate.
Dick,
I am interested in, if you recall, what “significant execution issues” you found on the Saga 43 you inspected.
John,
The boat I saw is advertised as a centre board version – 7′ 6″ down and 5’6 up. I have not found information online about this option. Other than the very shallow draft option of the early boats is there any other reason that you have heard to stay away from some of the early Saga 43s? This offering is from 1996 which would most likely make it one of the early builds.
This is my first comment on this site please let me know if this passes the AAC comment guidelines and I have not violated item #3 “Not a forum”. Thanks.
Hi Rob,
Yes, totally what comments are for: discussing the topic of the post above. Also, anytime someone asks a question I’m well disposed toward their comment even if it’s a bit off topic, since with a question we have a situation that can be improved, always worth my and other’s time. Where I get a bit testy is when comment threads spin off into a bunch of unrelated position statements, particularly when they have been stated scores of times before.
On the Saga, I really don’t know any more about the boat beyond what I wrote above.
One thing I would say is having sailed 1000s of miles on one, (F&C 44) I’m not a fan of keel-centreboard boats. To me, if you are going to have the complications of a board, go the whole hog and get a Boreal or Ovni. So if I were looking at Saga 43s I would be holding out for a deep draft one.
If you are serious about a Saga, what I would advise is talking to the man himself, Bob Perry. He will know all about the different models and have some idea of quality variability issues over the life of the production run. Well worth what he charges.
Bob Perry, in conversation with Andy Schell (podcast) and in forum comments, gave the same advice about the deep draft version. He was happy about the sailing characteristics but thought quality of build was not what it could have been. The Saga I saw was a nice looking boat and only a few hours drive from my home north of Toronto. However I will blink the hearts out of my eyes and keep looking.
As I am in the early days of boat hunting, and have time, I find myself in the “sail away offshore cruising boat for $100 000” stage. However the more I read about worst case scenarios with fiberglass boats, (bulkhead bonding, deck/hull joint issues, keels and keel bolts, rudder failures and bearing issues, deficient mast steps, cored hulls, delamination, etc.), the more aluminum construction sounds appealing. I need to learn more about the worst case scenarios with aluminum to compare.
Your work and Colin’s on AAC plus a video tour of Charlie Doane’s boat has sold me on the Boreal as an ideal cruising boat! Unfortunately not in the budget at the moment.
An older Ovni (36, 395, 43/435) may be attainable while still keeping the house. When the time comes I plan to hire the professional to assist in avoiding novice mistakes. In the meantime I will continue to get more experience sailing other people’s boats, learn about characteristics of as many different boats as possible and work on my seasickness strategies (gravol my go to).
Maybe a trip to France to hang around their boat yards is in order (not many Ovnis on the market close to home)? Boat buying tourism sounds like a thing!
Thanks for your site. The best reference I have found online.
Hi Rob,
Sounds like a plan. That said, aluminium is not a panacea either. And Ovni’s have had their own problems with keels and rudders. For example Colin has been through two keel rams on his 435.
More on the care of aluminium here: https://www.morganscloud.com/2017/11/11/22-aluminum-boat-care-tips-part-1/
Hi Rob
Before you (or anybody) decides to spend the next 5-7 years saving money for what you believe is the perfect boat (Boreal) or even worse, building the perfect boat there is something you absolutely must do first. Cross an ocean!
Not an un-Obtainable goal! Here are several ways to make it happen:
Offshore Passage Opportunities: https://www.sailopo.com/h1.aspx
59 North Sailing: https://www.59-north.com/
Mahina Expeditions: http://www.mahina.com/
John Kretschmer: https://johnkretschmersailing.com/
ROAM: https://sailsurfroam.com/
I strongly recommend this. Both my wife and I have done (collectively) four saltwater deliveries as crew, two coastal and two offshore. We did them separately for “worst-case” reasons and because we wanted different experiences, which we got, in spades. In addition, we’ve both taken RYA courses. This has sharpened our skills and given us “real-life” experience about what it’s like to live aboard a boat in passagemaking conditions.
You want to do this to ensure you are on the right path BEFORE you plow money (estimate you’d spend a lot more than you’d think, everyone does) into the boat you think is right today. It’s entirely possible, having been to sea without the prospect of a dock in, say, a week or three, that what you want and/or need might be quite different from what you would choose today. I know the 59 North people and have met Kretschmer: both are good choices and a couple of grand thrown at them now could save you tens of grand later on.
Yes Richard and Marc that is the best advice, experience sailing other peoples’ boats first for sure and working with role models and mentors. OPO is my next goal, just trying to line up my schedule.
Add Ocean Crew Link by World Cruising Club to your list. Through them I experienced my first two offshore, non-stop passages the first double handed from Nassau to Annapolis (Lord Nelson 41) and the other the first leg of the ARC USA Nanny Cay, BVI to Bermuda (Hallberg-Rassey 42). This is how I got hooked! (even though I experienced 3 days of sea sickness on the second trip I still completed all of my watches and want to keep cruising. Reminds me of my teenage years swearing never to drink again after a bad hangover only to do it all over again the next weekend!)
To get the experience of sailing the Strait of Georgia from Vancouver to Vancouver Island I enrolled in a Sail Canada 5 day live-aboard Intermediate cruising course. To further refine my skills I completed Sail Canada’s Basic Cruising instructor course. One of my evaluators is a professional skipper, mentor and role model. In 2024 she will be the first Canadian woman to race in the Vendee Globe!
Now I need to increase my offshore experience. OPO seems to be my best option at this time. An Atlantic crossing is definitely on the list. Having passed on an offer to sail to the Azores from Bermuda I feel there is unfinished business. 🙂
I spoke with Andy and Mia and John and Amanda at the Toronto boat show and agree their programs are great options that I am also considering.
Andy Schell’s On the Wind Sailing podcast is where I heard about the Saga 43 during his conversation with designer Bob Perry. This is what caught my initial interest with the Saga 43.
Too many different boat options on the used market is overwhelming! I will continue to build my experience and hire a professional to help guide me when the time is closer.
Hi Rob,
It has been almost 20 years.
I went to the Annapolis Boat Show specifically to see the Saga 43. I thought, still think, the design was excellent: it was like a smaller version of the Sundeers which were out of my range.
It was hull # 1 and the manufacturer was the rep on board who let me poke around, take minor stuff apart to look behind stuff which I did for hours. For that hull it was details that stood out: drawers that when pulled out more than ½ way over balanced, tipped to 45 degrees and spilled their contents, the pulpit was very shaky and a number of items of that ilk. We worried that it was indicative of slipshod attention to details in other areas.
The rep was so accommodating I wished to give him feedback as to why we were not considering his boat. He graciously wrote me back, acknowledging that he agreed with my areas of concern and said that new boats were addressing those concerns. I believe that to be the case.
I wonder whether the boat you mention could be that hull # 1.
Years later, we spent time with a later hull number Saga 43 whose experienced owners had basically worked very closely with the manufacturer to get the details right. They were very happy with their boat, already had a lot of miles and an ocean crossing on it and years living aboard. I believe all subsequent Sagas benefitted from that collaboration, but I do not know what their hull number was.
Good luck with your search.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Now that I’m one year into my ownership of my Saga 43 (Hull #50), I can say that the design itself is really excellent. The combination of an easily driven moderate displacement hull, ample but easily managed sailplan, excellent sailing characteristics, good tankage, open transom, and nice interior layout all make for an exceptional performance cruiser. Everything that is not so great about the boat stems from the builder. The main issue is that Saga didn’t follow the mast step structural design that correctly placed heavy transverse stringers on the fore and aft side of the step to distribute the loads into the balsa cored hull. It boggles the mind why they didn’t follow the design. As a result, many (all?) Saga 43s have had mast step issues that seem to manifest themselves into delamination at the forward bulkhead tabbing and extending into the step area itself. Because the boat is narrow, the rig loads are high and the hull racks in the area of the chainplates such that the master stateroom door frame becomes distorted (as in, you can’t close the door). Another issue is that Saga clearly punted on the quality of the gelcoat. A 20 year old boat should not need to be painted because the gelcoat has failed but that’s exactly where many are at. That’s a big expense. The stainless work, performed by Klacko, is quite good and has held up well, including the arch which is really a great option for this boat. I’ll have the boar “right” in a few years, but I would’ve gladly paid 50% more for a different boat had I known. For that money I could’ve bought an OB 44. My 2 cents after working basically non-stop on this boat for 12 months on every system. Had the previous owner been more attentive to the issues I might be whistling a different tune.
Hi Jesse,
Wow, what a great comment. Very few boat owners think about these things as rationally as you have. Instead most of us let confirmation bias take over and thereby make the problems worse. Or to put it another way, the first step to a seaworthy boat is taking the rose coloured glasses off and acknowledging the problems that most all boats have. Good on you for doing just that. Also approbation for being honest that a more expensive better boat like the Outbound might have been a better call. When I bought my Fastnet 45 it took me 10 years to figure that out!
If it makes you feel any better, our J/109 has the same gelcoat issues. As I understand it there was a bad formula made between the late 90s and about 2005 and most boats of that period have the issues including those built by TPI, Sabre, and Tarten, so I’m guessing Saga sourced from the same manufacturer.
Hi Jesse,
I think the Saga 43 is a great design and would make a good design for single-handing. I thought of it as similar, but more workable, to a Sundeer/Deerfoot back in the day when I was looking at boats to live aboard. I am sorry that you have had structural struggles, but appreciate your report to make public your observations.
Back in the late 90’s I think I first heard of the boat in a Blue Water sailing magazine and I heard that hull #1 would be in Annapolis at the boat show. The manufacturer let us crawl all over that boat which my wife and I did for about 2+ hours. We opened and inspected most everything that could be inspected without tools.
The long and short was that there were problems: drawers fell open dumping their contents when only ½ way out; bow and stern rails very shaky as if there were no backing plates (which we could not confirm) and things of that nature. Nothing super-major, but enough for us to wonder about what we could not see.
The manufacturer was so gracious that I wrote him a long letter with my observations and reservations. He responded in kind, thanking me, acknowledged the problems and said all would be fixed in the hulls to come.
Jump a few years and we are sharing an anchorage in the Bahamas with a Saga 43 whose owners had, from their description, so liked the design that they ordered one and spent considerable time at the factory ensuring that it was built to their satisfaction. I suspect that all the following hulls benefited greatly from their involvement.
We later spent time with the owners and boat in, I believe, Turkey. They loved their boat.
At that same boat show we went down the docks to get acquainted with another Bob Perry design, a Valiant 42. Later that winter we found a used Valiant and have never looked back: it has taken good care of us.
That said, I suspect the Saga 43 might have been a bit more fun when sailing.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Hi Dick,
I agree, the Saga is a boat that attracted me from the first day I laid eyes on one. One the the best of a very good design stable (Perry). That’s interesting about the issues you observed on hull #1 and sad that Perry’s vision got at least partly compromised by the builder issues. Unfortunately it’s an all too common problem of which my J/109 is representative.