For only the second time in nearly 30 years, Phyllis and I are actively looking at buying a boat.
Yes, you guessed it, we are starting to at least think about selling Morgan’s Cloud. There, I said it. The reasons are complex and best saved for another article on the issues facing an aging voyager. I will write that in due time, once I have it sorted out in my own head, but the short version is that now that we are only sailing three or four months a year, and no longer living aboard, she is too much boat for our needs and so she should be passed on to someone who will really use one of the best long distance offshore live aboard sailboats ever built.
The interesting thing is that after years of thinking about our next boat, including flirting with the idea of a motorboat, we have decided that what we need, or at least want, is a sailboat that sails really well, of around 40 feet and about 20,000 pounds displacement (half load), at a price of around $US200,000 to $250,000, ready to cross an ocean—we are not looking for a project boat, been there, done that.
The boat that I’m guessing a lot of you readers want, too. (If you need to spend less, read on.) And guess what? Even though $US200,000 is a hell of a lot of money, that’s a really hard specification to fill.
Many of you are now saying, “duh, John”. You are right. Although I have repeatedly lamented about how hard it is to find decent offshore boats—yes, I still want to be able to cross an ocean—I had not realized just how bad the problem is. That is, until I started combing through the listings on sites like Yachtworld.
Sure, there are thousands of boats for sale, but I would not touch most of them with a 10-foot sterilized barge pole.
That’s the bad news. The good news is that over the next year or so we will be sharing:
- The things that disqualify most boats and why. I know, sounds negative, but actually knowing what we are not going to buy is a great step to getting a good boat.
- The type of boats that interest Phyllis and me, and why.
- How to do a self-survey in just a few hours that can save us untold grief and money.
Of course, US$200,000 is still way too high a price for many, particularly in today’s world of uncertain career paths, so as part of this, we are also going to take another look at the whole “buy an old boat and refit her” strategy to see if there is any way to get a safe, and reasonably pleasant to live aboard, offshore sailboat ready to go for less than US$100,000 (owner labour not included). Doable? I don’t know, but let’s find out. One thing I’m pretty sure of, said boat will be smaller than the one I sketched out above.
And, best of all, this won’t be just my take on all of this. Colin is going to be part of it, too. And, as many of you know, Colin knows more about more boats, particularly in the above-targeted ranges, than any person I have ever met.
And, of course, we will have the benefit of the huge combined wisdom of our members in the form of discussion in the comments. Undoubtedly the highest quality reservoir of offshore boat knowledge and experience in the world.
Should be both fun and interesting, and the cooperative aspect will be much like the Adventure 40 project; one of the most fun and, I think, most valuable things we have done around here, even though it did not result in an actual boat.
By the way, if the Adventure 40 existed, Phyllis and I would buy one in a heartbeat and so save ourselves all this grief—it’s still by far the best option.
But that’s pie in the sky, so let’s get on with dealing with the boat buying world the way it really is. Stay tuned.
Comments
So what boats do you think Phyllis and I should be looking at to meet our criteria? Remember, no project boats.
And do you have any suggestions for a boat that could meet the $100,000 (owner labour not included) price tag, when ready to go? Project boats are OK for this category, but not ones that need rebuilding. Refitting is one thing, but let’s not condemn anyone to 10 years at hard labour and/or an old age in poverty, both real risks of refitting the wrong boat.
Please leave a comment.
Further Reading
In the meantime, don’t forget that we have already done a lot of work on just this subject:
- How to Buy a Cruising Boat Online Book
- The Adventure 40
This sounds like fun! Looking forward to following the process. Good luck!
Hi john,
This one is, ok not exactly a fit but a lot of quality for $200,000 that some one will enjoy.
https://au.yachtworld.com/boats/2002/kasten-bos-carr-steel-schooner-2487691/?refSource=standard%20listing
Damian
Hi Damian,
while she is definetely a beautiful boat I would not recommend it to an aging sailor (sorry John – but at least we’re both in the same age range) who is looking for a smaller boat that might be easier to handle for a shorthanded crew.
Two mast gaff? Beautiful to look at, but sail handling, reefing, etc needs at least two at the mast, and a lot of work.
No secured cockpit, and two deck holes (I would never call them “companionways”) to get downstairs? Think of how “easy” this will be when going gets rough.
Beautiful boat, something for a crew of at least four preferably young people. And overpriced, IMHO.
After looking at the extensively photo-documented technical details I completely retract my consideration of her being overpriced. Still I wouldn’t recommend her for the other reasons I stated above – but I have to admit that she has a lot of well-thought of details on her technical side that make her a very serious boat.
Hi Ernest, John,
As i said maybe not a exact fit, but the fact is for an ocean going vessel at a asking price of $200,000 its a yes on at least those to points in my opinion, and yes too
heavy and, and, and, but i guess $200 was my point the rest is personal on what one will or wont accept. When her new owner comes along he or she is going to get a lot of value out of her compared to a lot of other vessels on the market in the same price range.
Damian
Hi Ernest,
I look at that Redpath-design schooner and see a boat setup to be singlehanded.
Though I don’t own a gaffer now, I have sailed several thousand miles on gaff-rigged schooners, both singlehanded and doublehanded (meaning the person on watch handles all the sails by themselves). The double topping lifts on this boat help keep the gaff under control when raising/lowering/reefing. On this size of boat, there should be no problem with alternately hauling on the peak and throat halyards to raise the gaff sails (more details at https://www.issuma.com/rhudson/RR/SchoonerSailingNotes.htm ), so sailhandling on this boat could definitely be a one-person job.
The booms are short (for a gaffer), so I think this boat is probably setup for jiffy-reefing, and no reef points (which I don’t see on the sail plan drawing) need to be tied. The main boom gallows look like they’ll help keep the main boom under control while reefing.
Though I think it’s only of value when short-tacking up a narrow channel (ie, not offshore), all sails look to be self-tacking on this boat.
As to going below when at sea, I look at the companionway into the forward cabin as something that one holds onto the mainmast while climbing up and down. Entering the aft cabin, one holds onto the grab rail around the compass. Entering the forepeak, one holds onto the foremast.
The lifelines look fairly high to me (their height is not listed), implying the designer, builder and/or owner was thinking about going to sea.
There isn’t a picture of the hull out of the water that shows the bow, but judging from the stern, there is probably a fair amount of rocker in the hull, and it’s definitely not flat-bottomed, so likely to be pretty sea-kindly.
I completely agree with your comment that the technical (electrical & mechanical) systems on this boat look quite impressive. And that it’s also not a small boat (36,000 lbs).
Best regards,
Richard
Hello John and Phyllis,
This will be a very instructive project.
We have had three boats : An Amel 53 ft Meltem, then for limited budget and coastal cruising a Beneteau 43 and finally our present boat a Hallberg Rassy 46.
All GRP but the construction process and system integration are very different. Our sailing experience is very limited compared to yours and many AAC members.
To summarize :
GRP by Amel and HR iare extremly sturdy and both are adapted to the stress loads of offshore cruising. Beneteau is lighter in all aspects , in offshore cruising it will age quickly. it s a cost killer during construction and a money spender to upgrade to blue water cruuising.
Amel was very well built but didn’t sail very well. The ketch rig was logical before all modern systems that allow a midlle age couple to sail. Modern technology now favours mast head cutter rig with in line spreaders as the ideal rig for a 40-60 foot offshore cruiser.
When we chose our HR 46 we were very influenced by John and Amanda Neal’s extended offshore experience. The only alternative would be a Discovery 55.
In that choice we went against our prevention about in mast furling. For cruising which is most of the time down wind that is a very good option now that our fears have vanished.
Central cockpit with a comfortable rear cabin is great for extended cruising. A real stand in engine room is a definitive plus.
This is our humble contribution to this on going discussion. I know I will learn more than I can share, and I am grateful to you and AAC members to instruct me.
Regards
Denis Foster
Hi Denis,
A very good analysis, I think, thank you.
John
i am also looking for a 40′ boat. Would love a Boreal, but don’t have that cash. But even the HR’s and Amels are not cheap..
Hi Dirk,
There are a lot of cheap boats out there, but pretty much all of them are cheap because they are crap. Good boats are surprisingly expensive, I’m finding. As I say in the article, I think the best compromise is to move down in size rather than buy a bigger boat with big problems.
Hi Phyllis and John,
Firstly, what does 20,000 pounds half load approximately translate into with full tanks and cruising kit and supplies for off shore? Aside from the tanks, my casual guess is that the kit I would have for an offshore boat/passage would add 2-4,000 pounds over the kit I would choose for coastal cruising and, perhaps, jumping out to the Bahamas say.
At first blush, that weight seems to narrow the field considerably. I have seen J boats in roughly that size out and about, certainly making offshore passages, and they are that light, I think. Many of the others that come to mind are, I suspect, more hefty.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Hi Dick,
That’s exactly it. I will write more about the spec that Phyllis and I have developed for our next boat, but suffice to say she will be smaller and lighter than say your Valiant. Now that we are no longer living aboard, we just don’t need the load carrying capacity of a heavier boat. In fact I would be happy to look at even lighter boats. One that intrigues me in the J120.
Fast, light but worthy of offshore use? The Saga 43s seem to be in that realm and some of the earlier ones are coming to market as the owners swallow the anchor. But those who know about them are keeping the prices comparatively higher, too.
I will add that our pilothouse with a 48 by 27 inch gas-strut-lifted hatch leading to a spacious engine bay has been the feature visitors express the greatest envy over. We literally inverted the “living space” for “access” equation and have not regretted having a vessel on which it’s hard to fall over in a blow without a handhold presenting itself.
Hi Mark,
Yup the Saga is a nice boat, as long as you get a deep keel model. That said, I’m thinking a bit smaller. https://www.morganscloud.com/2009/11/01/saga-43-sailboat/
Great topic John, a question though – will you be sharing in detail the revised scope that this new vessel needs to be capable of?
The voyages you both have made with Morgan’s Cloud would put you in the sub-1% of cruising sailors and the boat in the sub-1% of suitable craft. Reducing the scope, and thus the specifications, brings into play a much wider array of boats, including production designs that many of us more modest sailors (in cruising goals) own, or dream of owning.
Looking forward to following your search.
Br. Rob
Hi Rob,
Yes, I will share the goals for our next boat. Still working on that, but I should have it sorted out in a month or so. It’s an interesting process.