I recently had lunch with a friend named Hans who owns a very nice 54-foot offshore sailboat. Hans does some pretty serious miles, with a bunch of trans-Atlantics and countless voyages from Nova Scotia to the Caribbean in the fall, and back home in the spring, to his name.
Hans shared that he was considering replacing the house bank on his boat with lithium batteries to dramatically increase the effective bank size from its already large capacity, about 800 amp hours at 24 volts (1600 amp hours at 12 volts).
When I asked why he would take this expensive step, he shared that his goal was to reduce generator run time from its current several hours a day when sailing offshore. (Hans has two AC generators, one of 3.8 kw and the other a monster 14 kw.)
Really?
My first thought was that increasing the bank size would not decrease generator run time since the amp hours used have to be put back eventually, regardless of bank size.
OK, I Get It
But then I started to see his logic for his typical four to six-day passages: Nova Scotia to Bermuda and Bermuda to the Caribbean, and return.
In this case a massive house bank (lithium or not) would increase the chances that he would not have to disrupt his sailing with long and frequent generator runs since:
- He usually goes alongside at the beginning and end of a passage and so can be fully charged before leaving and then recharge from shore power on arrival.
- These passages typically, or at least often, include some motoring with the attendant battery charging.
And, by going with lithium, the possibility of several days of noise-free sailing goes up substantially, since the house bank could be safely discharged to about 25% of capacity, rather than the 50% that is prudent with lead acid.
We didn’t get into the details of Hans’ usage at sea, but knowing that his boat is fully tricked out with all the gadgets—plus autopilot, watermaker and big freezer—and based on our own usage at sea, I would estimate about 200 amp hours at 24 volts each day (400 amp hours at 12 volts) and certainly no less than 150 amp hours at 24 volts.
So, for the sake of discussion, let’s assume the larger usage and that Hans installs a 1300 amp, 24 volt lithium bank. That would supply about five full days of sailing, based on the above, before he needed to run the generator or plug in—problem solved.
(A lead acid bank of any type—liquid filled, Gell, or AGM—would be impractical, since to have the same effective capacity it would have to be over 2500 amp hours at 24 volts or 5000 amp hours at 12 volts!)
We Gotta Think
Hans’ story is interesting because it illustrates how each of us needs to really think about our usage profile before selecting battery type and capacity, not just:
- Make a decision based on some rule of thumb,
- or what someone else has done,
- or just assume that a bigger bank is always better.
For example, this change would make little sense for a sailing cruiser trying to reduce generator (or main engine for charging) run time, who:
- Spends a lot of time at anchor and rarely goes alongside.
- Regularly makes longer passages of a week or more in the trade wind belts where motoring is much rarer.
In both these cases a massive bank (lithium or lead acid) wouldn’t help since the generator (or engine for charging) run time would remain the same, all that would change is the interval between run times.
On the other hand, massive banks can make good sense for motorboats (or sailboats that motor a lot) who wish to remain quiet when at anchor and then will have lots of charging time while moving to the next anchorage.
Big Money
I digress, back to Hans. Of course, all of this assumes that he is willing to spend the some US$10,000 to US$15,000 that such a lithium bank and associated modifications of the boat’s electrical system would cost, not to speak of the added complications and fragility of lithium. (See Further Reading.) None of which he was keen on.
A Simple and Cheap Solution
Given these drawbacks, we chatted a bit more about other ways to solve his problem, during which I asked:
How about if you could reduce generator run time to half or even a third of what it is now for less than 10% of the cost of lithium and with minimal complication and installation hassles?
Hans perked up and allowed how that would be a perfectly acceptable solution.
A Quiz
So here’s a quiz for you: What is my simple and relatively cheap solution?
Read on to get the answer:
We increased our charging capacity for our 800AH (12V) bank from one 60A charger by adding a 100A Mastervolt and the benefits were immediate. However, I still get very frustrated by the rapid decrease in charge rate. About the maximum charge seen is only about 120A and that’s quickly down to 90A (within like 5 minutes) and then slowly decreases further (as measured on the voltage meter at the panel). I guess this is normal – but I’d love to know how I could fool the system into maintaining the higher charge rate for longer. Any ideas? We typically charge until rate is down to 40A and then let the wind and solar take over – takes between 30 and 60 minutes – enough time to make or heat water too.
Hi Bill,
No, that’s not normal. Assuming your batteries are at a discharge level of say 50% when you start charging, an 800 amp/hour bank should lap up everything that those two chargers working together (160 amps) can supply, up until the discharge level reaches about 80%. At that point (the end of the bulk phase and start of acceptance) the charge rate will start to tail off: https://www.morganscloud.com/2016/06/04/how-batteries-charge-multiple-charging-sources-too/
So either the chargers are not programmed or possible not installed right, or, as Roland said, they are sulphated. I’m guessing the latter. One of the symptoms of sulphation is that the battery accepts lest charge than it should and goes into acceptance earlier than it should. See this post for how to deal with that:
https://www.morganscloud.com/2010/10/05/equalizing-batteries-the-reality/
To check which of the above is the root of the problem. Make sure the batteries are say 50% discharged. Measure the voltage at the batteries when the charge rate starts to fall off. If the voltage is below about 14.2 volts (at 70F), the chargers have a problem. And if it’s below 13.8 volts, a big problem. If between 14.2 and 14.4 it’s the batteries.
Thanks for the comments John. I actually think I’m being badly guided by a battery monitor that doesn’t know how to count (!) and I’m not discharging to such an extent… Probably only to 70% or thereabouts. The batteries are new-ish (18mo) routinely equalized and I can’t see anything obviously wrong with the wiring. Currently tied to dock power for a month (what a luxury!) but after that we’ll do a proper discharge and see how things make out.
Do I degrade the batteries by NOT discharging to 50% from time to time?
Hi Bill,
No, not discharging to 50% will not hurt them, in fact it will probably extend their lives a bit.
John,
Another great article that gets at the heart of a lot of battery charging issues.
I recently bought a “converter/charger” and from powermax (linked below) and have been really impressed with it as it solves a lot of cruiser’s issues!
There are various pros/cons, and it requires a understanding of your system and the pros/cons, so it is not a set it and forget it, but for an moderately astute cruiser, in the right environment*(see below), I think fills a HUGE need for a budget and huge output charging system. First off, the con, is it is “stupid”, in that there is no automatic temperature regulation. BUT, there is a manual adjustable potentiometer, to set the output voltage. So, in use, you can turn off the 3-stage charging and set it to a constant, but adjustable voltage output and can adjust the voltage that it outputs according to temperature. In essence, it is a manual voltage regulation. The key here, is that in the tropics, the battery is always at or above 70F degrees and when charging will rise to say, 100F, so the charge voltage for a lead-acid goes from 14.4 to 14.05, not a huge swing, and I have talked with two battery manf (lifeline and interstate) and the experts there said that for short charing times, say an hour or two, that the sensitivity to these charge voltages is quite little, so setting it to say 14.2, is sufficient to charge with minimal detrimental effects. Also, since the current through the battery is reduced due to the increasing internal resistance of the battery toward the end of the bulk charge, the heat created due to the high charge rate decreases, thereby self-regulating the temperature to some degree. If the batteries are old, setting a slightly lower voltage will slow the charge rate as well if temp is an issue. The first pro, is that these 120 amp models are under 175 dollars, so I got two, and can run in parallel, charging at just about 240 amps, for under 400 bucks (minus the wiring cost). The beauty is also, two gives redundancy, and ability to load share, when say you want to run a watermaker or other, only charge with one charger.
http://powermaxconverters.com/product/pm3-12v-series/
Steve Dashew described a similar process on Beowulf whereby the alternator regulators were manually adjusted and he would adjust them if he was powering for long periods or charging at anchor or equalizing. He could quickly charge at anchor with high voltage, back it down lower for long motorings, or increase it higher for equalizing charges
(https://www.setsail.com/s_logs-dashew-dashew198/#more-726)
This brings up the secondary and tertiary benefits of this charger! Easy use for Equalizing and for long-term battery charge maintenance. This charger will easily increase to the higher voltages required to equalize (upto 16.5 volts, which is sufficient for room-temp batteries) and so it is easy to equalize them without additional hardware.
Finally, long term battery charging, such as when you are on shore power for a month or two, you wont boil all of the liquid out of your batteries like other chargers will. Especially if something like a fridge or other item is left on, which other chargers will get tricked into going into a bulk charge often, with the associated, water boiling, battery damaging, higher voltages. With this charger, you can set the voltage lower, say 13.2, and it will maintain 13.2 volts regardless of the load, and therefore not overcharge the batteries. *Again this could be application specific, as we are in the tropics, and therefore have air con on, thereby maintaining the battery temperature, allowing us to set a constant 13.2 volts.
*(note: I think this works well in tropics since the temp swing is so little. In the high latitudes, where the battery temps will start at a potentially very low temperature, the temp swing is large, and the automatic temp/voltage regulation may be more critical)
Sorry for the length of this, but this charger has been invaluable to us, and therefore believe this charger could be similarly useful to many other cruisers and will help solve may issues that many cruisers face. Even simply the application of equalizing, I believe it is one of the cheapest products that can be used to equalize batteries easily.
All the best,
Conor
Hi Conor,
Great comment with lots of good information. And I agree, manual regulation is a great option for those cruisers that have the knowledge and desire to do it. In fact can often be better than automated regulations since so called “smart” regulation often isn’t: https://www.morganscloud.com/2010/09/04/agm-battery-chargers/
I do agree that more charge capacity is better. In Hans case his 11 kW generator will only be happy to get more to do.
When it comes to small generators you have to have some margin. They can and should not run at full load for long periods. Do not put more than 75 % load on them. I have a 3600W generator that should be able to produce 13A on 220V. If I try that it will overheat and/or carbon up. It is happy when I reduce the maximum load to 8 to 9A which is around 75%.
Bill. I’m not sure what type of batteries you have but think it is quite normal result. It is no magic you can do. They absorb what they can. The only thing you might be able to do is to increase the voltage if the batteries can tolerate higher voltage. How old are your batteries? They might be sulfated which means that they recharge quite fast as the capacity is low. You typical see that voltage climb quite fast.
Hi Roland,
Good point on the sulphating.
As to generators, I think most are rated continues at full output, our Northern Lights certainly is, and has no trouble producing full rated output and even some surges over rated. That said, of course each owner should check their generator manual for guide lines on that.
Larger slow running generators like Northern Light can run harder. But small fast running 3600/3800 RPM generators is another story.
Often it is only a one cylinder motor. It is very much like the same dilemma as with alternators. You would expect the alternators to be able to run at rated output. But reality is somehing ells.
Though I have no direct experience with the Fischer-Panda generator, I have seen quite a few of them in repair shops, and have peered into their innards on occasion. They are highly compact, highly engineered, and highly expensive. I have also heard complaints about them.
Years ago I got a Kubota AE300, single cylinder diesel engine on EBay and cobbled together a 12VDC generator with a belt driven 140 amp alternator. Running at a reduced output to increase belt life and go easy on the 7 hp. motor, it kicks out up to about 80 amps in the initial stages of charging my 400+ amp/hr AGM battery bank. I run it for 70 minutes at a time, twice a day to replace about 100 amp/hr of usage per day. It consumes about one pint of diesel per hr. direct from the main fuel tanks.
It’s been good on long passages (transatlantic, Bermuda, etc.) for overnight charging. My boat has a narrow stern that is already too crowded with outboard storage, radar post, etc. to accommodate solar or wind charging, neither of which work anywhere, any time like the 12V Kubota driven charger. Installed in the aft lazarette, it’s controlled by a series of 12V relays with a timed relay that automates run time, which means that the genset will turn itself off after a set run time, a nice feature when at anchor and leaving the boat charging while going ashore. It probably isn’t as quiet as the Fischer Panda, but we find its industrious hum reassuring. The horizontal, counter-balanced engine design produces very little vibration.
Hi John,
DC gensets just make sense for many cruising boats, especially if their AC needs can be covered by an inverter.
I went that route with an Ample Power Genie more than a decade ago and I have been following the field of DC gensets pretty closely over this time. I still consider a DC genset the wisest way to power a cruising sailboat.
That said, I know of none I would now recommend (see p0ossibility below). Mine is an Ample Power product and has been a continual headache (especially dealing with the company), although I continue to make it work for me and it meets my cruising power needs.
I have never owned an FP but have talked with many owners and seen many installations. Fisher Pandas do look very attractive and (in my experience) fit the nursery rhyme “When they are good they are very very good, but when they are bad they are horrid.” Unfortunately, most/all seem to get to the horrid stage and then have a cascading series of problems from then on till gotten rid of. I would have bought an FP, but I have found just way too many problems from owners, many of whom have turned their FP GS’s into mooring weights: this after spending one or two times their initial investment in repairs etc. and gobs of time in ports waiting for help. Part of the problem are they are so impeccably and compactly designed that they are almost impossible for the average bloke (cruiser) to work on and experienced mechanics do not want much to do with them (they are beautiful to look at, like lifting the lid on a BMW). So, for me, they fail the reliability test.
There have been a handful of DC gensets that have come out over the decades, some connected to dive compressors, others to watermakers, but none I know of have passed the test of time.
It seems like such a no-brainer to make a DC genset (just attach a Kubota small diesel to a big alternator) that I keep looking. It may exist in just this form in a ZRD ZDCGE1222 (http://www.zrd.com/), but I am still doing research and would appreciate any feedback, especially those who may have had contact with this Florida based company. The unit looks good on paper and looks good in person at the one boat show where I first saw it. I find the web site to be one of the best written arguments for a DC genset and to cover many other bases but I find little track record for their products or their customers.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
are you able to provide any further insight as to the problems that were occurring with the FischerPanda units – was it the engines or the bits hanging off them?
looking at FP website, it appears they use the small Kubota 2 and 3cyl diesels as a base for their DC units
Hi Marcus,
Good questions begetting partial answers.
On my Ample unit it was the black boxes and “the marinizing” and the safety shut-offs that caused most of my problems. That and a poorly designed exhaust elbow.
Most/all of the DC gensets I am aware of do use the small Kubota engines (mine is a 1 cylinder, some are 2 cyl), originally designed (I believe) to be small tractor engines. It should not be a surprise then that some troubles come with the switch over from air-cooled radiator cooling to a raw water/fresh water-cooled system. The FP I am most recently familiar with had a break/leak spray hot salt water inside his soundproof container and you can well imagine the problems cascading from that one mishap. (As an aside, this seems one large downside of an enclosure.) The rest had a multitude of issues with no common theme. I believe all owners felt that dealing with the FP company was very difficult. I suspect that there is a lot of info on the web.
So, I think absolutely, that it is the bits hanging off them that cause the reliability issues. But that is little different than many/most propulsion engines for recreational boats. The basic engine is almost always solid (certainly the Kubota engine is) and was very likely initially designed for a purpose other than pushing boats around.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
I second your opinion of the exhaust elbow as a weak point. My most recent exhaust elbow came from Nextgenerationpower.com who make, or have made, an FP-like genset. Their exhaust elbow seems to be holding up. The combination of corrosion at the welds, and vibration destroys many elbows. The one cylinder Kubota is simple enough to rebuild on the aft deck of a small boat without many tools (my 2011 winter project). Given a good fuel and raw water supply, the little Kubota runs unperturbed in all conditions and angles of heel at 1800 rpm.
Hi Dick,
I agree, DC gen sets make total theoretical sense for most of us, including Phyllis and I. That said, when your base line is a Northern Lights that has been reliable for 25 years—one failed sensor that took 10 mins to track down, and 10 to change—DC just does not appeal. To me reliability trumps all.
Sorry to hear that the FP DC units are yet another dud in a long line of duds.
For reliable DC gensets check out Polar Power. Their units are very simple using a robust permanent magnet alternator. They primarily sell to military and telecom applications but have a marine series too based on Volvo Penta engines. https://polarpower.com/marine-dc-generators/
Hi YThomas,
Thanks for your information. Can you site ways of confirming reliability? Do you have first hand knowledge?
Thanks, Dick
Hi Reed,
Nice report and a nice job of cobbling together a DC genset. Please go into the business!
When I hear something I consider unwise to boat or person, I mention it and cross my fingers that one hears it as helpful and not being a busybody. I have come across 3 boats that burned to the waterline and all the fires were on a boat left un-attended with the generator running. Clearly, the good side was that there were no injuries to people, but it was a tragedy nonetheless. I believe gensets, even with the safety turn-offs and the black boxes to monitor the unit need to have someone around to monitor and listen for alarms or other sorts of trouble.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Agreed, sailing is a sport that demands a degree of productive paranoia.
Hi Reed,
I like your “productive paranoia” phrase; kind captures an important head-set. Dick
Good morning! A reader pointed out that we had amps and amp hours confused (thanks, Bill!) and I must take responsibility for that. John does know the difference but, when editing, I went for neatness…a definite failing of mine! Sorry for any confusion. All the best, Phyllis