Over the years we have answered many questions about putting together a good anchor rode. In this chapter we have gathered some of those answers together.
Anchor Rode Questions and Answers
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More Articles From Online Book: Anchoring Made Easy:
- Introduction
- 4 Vital Anchor Selection Criteria and a Review of SPADE
- SARCA Excel Anchor—A Real World Test
- SPADE, SARCA Excel, or Some Other Anchor?
- Rocna Resetting Failures and Evaluation of Vulcan and Mantus
- Some Thoughts On The Ultra Anchor, Roll Bars and Swivels
- Specifying Primary Anchor Size
- Kedge (Secondary Anchor)—Recommended Type and Size
- Third Anchors, Storm Anchors and Spare Anchors
- Anchor Tests—The Good, The Bad, and The Downright Silly
- Making Anchor Tests More Meaningful
- We Love The Way Our Anchor Drags
- Things to Know About Anchor Chain
- Selecting a Chain Grade
- Anchor Chain Catenary, When it Matters and When it Doesn’t
- Anchoring—Snubbers
- Anchor Rode Questions and Answers
- Q&A: Hybrid Rope And Chain Anchor Rodes
- Anchor Swivels, Just Say No
- A Windlass That Makes The Grade
- The Perfect Anchor Roller
- Install A Wash-down Pump—And Save Money!
- Anchoring—Kellets
- Anchoring—Chain: Stoppers, Termination and Marking
- 20 Tips To Get Anchored and Stay Anchored
- Choosing an Anchorage
- Choosing a Spot
- 15 Steps To Getting Securely Anchored
- One Anchor or Two?
- Two Anchors Done Right
- Yawing at Anchor, The Theory and The Solution
- Yawing at The Anchor, an Alternative Cure
- How To Use An Anchor Trip Line
- ShoreFasts—Part 1, When to Use Them
- ShoreFasts—Part 2, Example Setups Plus Tips and Tricks
- ShoreFasts—Part 3, The Gear
I got 400 feet of HT from Acco and had them add a large link at both ends. This way I use a over size shackle to ensure no loss of strength.
Charlie
The Shackles I use are “Crosby” the pin in these shackles are painted red and have the work load stamped right on it
Regarding the Crosby G209A shackles. I have been using them for some time and like that they are about 2x stronger than the regular galvanized shackles and well matched to HT anchor chain.
I notice that after a while the pin starts rusting. I assume that’s because it isn’t galvanized. At what point to you replace the shackles?
In the picture at the start of this article, I notice you use two shackles between the chain and the anchor. I have only been using one. Why two?
Thanks, Bob
Hi Bob,
A little surface rust is no problem at all. Replace when there is actual pitting or reduction in the “wire size” (chain talk for the diameter of the stock the chain or shackle is made from).
There are two shackles because neither the hole in the anchor stock or the size of the 7/16″ G40 chain link are large enough to take the body of the shackle.
Next time we order chain, we will get a way oversize link put in at the end that will take the shackle body. (When we ordered this chain we still had the CQR that had an integrated shackle with a large hole permanently attached to it).
In a perfect world, the hole in the SPADE anchor stock would be larger so that the bow of the shackle could pivot through it. However, the two shackles are not a problem because neither is long enough to exert excessive strain on its own pin threads in the case of an off axis pull.
Hi John, I come across this anchor shackle which has a breaking load that far exceeds that of the chain without using an oversize link. Have I misunderstood your comment above? Thanks, https://titanmarineproducts.com/product/high-strength-forged-hot-dipped-galvanized-shackles/
Hi Ee Kiat,
The look good for G40 chain, based on their claims, but I have no experience with them. If you are using G70 chain, they probably won’t be strong enough without an oversized link, but I have not checked that.
Anyway, the key is to make sure you know your chain break load and dimensions so you can check before buying.
I am using 5/16″ HT chain with a 3/8″ G209A shackle with a Spade S140. I think the 5/16″ HT chain links do take the body of the shackle, so I can use a single shackle.
I was wondering if you were using two shackels for some other reason, but it sounds like that was the only way to connect the chain to the anchor.
Thanks!
I’m purchasing a new primary anchor and rode for a 40 foot, 20,000 lb boat. Mostly coastal causing in New England. Your comments regarding sizing anchor rodes and anchors have been invaluable. I searched for “plait” rope on your site but got nothing. Do you have an opinion on using plait instead of three strand?
Hi Dana,
I think that using plait makes a lot of sense since it is less likely to twist and hockle.
I have a short length of 3/8″ Grade 43 chain which has an unwelded link. I cut it from a longer length many years ago and saved it as a reminder as to why it’s so important to inspect every link of chain. It will scare the ‘you know what’ out of you to see it… Not all chain manufacturers put these lower grade chains through pull tests at the point of manufacturer, and this piece came from an Italian manufacturer.
I also wanted to suggest that anyone purchasing a new chain make extensive measurements of a few links after their thorough link by link inspection. Using calipers measure and record the inside length and width dimensions of a single link, measure the diameter at the bearing points (inter link points), and measure the outside length of a link. All future inspections can then be compared to this benchmark. Any length increase is cause to replace the chain as a load equal to 4-5 times the max working load limit has been imposed. Any stretch must reject! A 10% loss of interlink bearing area metal is another rejection criteria.
The National Association of Chain Manufacturers has an easy to find standard on the web. Search for NACM WELDED STEEL CHAIN SPECIFICATIONS. It is kind of like batteries… you can never know enough.
Thanks for the great info you have provided here.
Hi Bo,
I have regularly measured my chain wire diameter to check for corrosion wastage, but I had never thought to check for elongation. That’s a great tip, thank you.
I’m going to bite the bullet and replace my primary anchor and rode. What I have now — 55kg Bruce-type with chain and rope rode — has worked just fine. But I’m paranoid. (That’s probably because my previous boat, that day behind a Delta, dragged when I was at the top of the mast! What an awful feeling. Believe me, a man can get down a mast faster than a monkey if he — the man — needs to.)
Regarding the new anchor, my boat is 46 feet and 20 tons. My plan now is to get the Spade S160, which is three sizes up from the nominally recommended size for a boat this length, and one size up for a boat of this weight — and one size up from what Spade USA recommends for this boat. That’s the anchor.
The “problem” is the rode. I’ve got a drum windlass on deck (like on a fishing boat). It’s so much more convenient than sending the rode down below (for starters, no mess!), but it has two disadvantages, the first obvious: (1) there’s all that weight on deck; (2) there’s limited space on the drum. The upshot is that I cannot have an all-chain rode, certainly not with anything like the chain size I’m currently using. Now I’ve got about 50 feet of chain and about 250 feet of rope. I don’t know the chain size (which I cannot get easily because I’m half a world away from the boat), but it’s big.
Here’s where I need advice: what chain and rope should I get to maximize the amount of chain I can use? Put another way, what’s the minimum size chain, and of which type, and minimum size rope, and of which type, that would work here — of course with lots of extra strength built in (oversized, but not absurdly oversized)?
Thanks for any advice you can give (or words of caution, comfort, etc.).
P.S. I know I’ll get lots of sideways looks having a windlass drum on deck, but that’s just the way it is. For what it’s worth, it works for commercial fishermen (but so does the Bruce anchor, but I guess that most of them don’t actually hang off the anchor while asleep).
To add a bit, I checked my paperwork and it says that I have 60’ of 5/16” chain and 240’ of 3-strand 3/4″ nylon rope. That fills up my windlass drum — not helped by a very large swivel, which I plan to eliminate, between chain and rope. I thought the chain was bigger. Each link is very large. (One nice thing about a drum windlass like this is that the size and shape of the links is irrelevant to fitting on the windlass.)
Hi Paul
It depends where you are going. I spent this summer in northwestern British Columbia and southeast Alaska. Many of the anchorages were 90 to over 100 feet deep. I have 400 feet of 3/8 BBB chain plus 85 feet of nylon and felt that it was barely enough for my 15 ton sailboat. Also in a number of anchorages the bottom was bare rock with nothing for the anchor to grab onto.
Oh my. I’d love to be able to anchor in water that deep, but it’s just not possible with my setup. I also spent much of the summer in BC, and anchoring almost everywhere was out of the question. It gets very deep very fast there (which is why the anchorages are chockablock full by about 2pm). Alas, I’m limited by the size of the drum on my windlass for practical purposes. What I need is to get as much rode on as possible on that drum. If my recollection of some other information on this website is correct, that rules out BBB chain due to its weight. I will have no choice but to stay with mostly rope, but I hope to add more chain. The replacement anchor (Spade S160 probably) will weigh about 33 pounds less than the current anchor, so even with a bit more chain I wouldn’t be adding much weight on deck. The question for me is what chain and rope to use to maximize the the space I have while being very strong indeed.
Hi Paul,
Given the boat weight, my thinking would be to use 3/8″ G70 chain, which is the same size we use on our boat (26 tons), although you could probably get away with 5/16″ as long as you stick with G70.
More on that here:
https://www.morganscloud.com/2011/05/11/things-to-know-about-anchor-chain/
https://www.morganscloud.com/2013/09/25/which-anchor-chain-should-we-buy/
And once you have the chain sized, then just choose a rope of the same breaking strength (not safe working load) as the chain.
Also, it’s probably worth using a good quality braid, rather than three strand, since it will be a bit stronger for a given size and has less tendency to twist and hockle.
Thanks John. Just what I needed. I hope this may be useful to other readers, too.
BUT, of course answers beget more questions! …
I like the idea of the G70, but didn’t you have some issues with fitting the rode together — with fitting shackles and the like?
Regarding the rope, can you suggest a specific type of braided rope? I assume you don’t mean that same stuff we all use for running rigging. (Sorry if this is a dumb question.)
What I’d love to find is a website the actually compares the overall dimensions of different chains and ropes. To me that’s another attribute that really matters. But I haven’t found such a website yet.
Hi Paul,
The issues with G70 are detailed in the posts I linked to.
As to rope, I have not anchored on rope in years so have no first hand experience, but any good quality nylon double braid should do the job fine.
A couple of years ago I bought a spool of nylon for docklines for our winter in the water in Halifax from NovaBraid and have been happy with the rope:
http://www.novabraid.com/rope/novagold/
The other option is to go with Eric’s very innovative suggestion. That said, I do wonder about the practicality of weighting the Dynema with wire.
I guess at the end of the day, if it were me, I would bite the bullet, get rid of the drum winch and convert to a more practical anchoring system. I know you didn’t want to hear that, but given how importantly anchoring is to cruising safety and happiness I think it’s the best bet. Bottom line, I think that anything you do with this setup is always going to be a bit of a kluge.
Hi Paul,
The advice given by John is good. Let me throw out another idea that I have no personal experience with but may appeal to you if you are willing to be a bit of a guinea pig (not generally what most try to do with anchoring).
The idea is centered around the fact that you have a drum windlass, I can’t see this working with any other setup. You would have your Spade anchor, as much length of 3/8″ chain as possible and then the remaining rode would be dyneema. The major advantages of doing this are that 1) it is far more chafe resistant than nylon 2) you can use a far smaller size such as 1/2″ versus 7/8″ or 1″ 3) it is far lighter so you are not carrying as much weight on deck.
There are 3 issues why this doesn’t work for most people but I think it could work for you. The first issue is that windlasses can’t grip it but when you are on a drum, it doesn’t matter and actually many cranes and winches are now going from cable to synthetic line. The next issue is that it floats which can be overcome by putting wire through the center or other weighting techniques. Finally, it is very stiff so it needs an external shock absorber. The obvious answer to this is a snubber but then you need a way to attach that. My suggestion would be to splice up eyes on either end of 50′ lengths and hitch them together (this has shown to be extremely strong) to get your total desired rode length so you would have an eye every 50′ where you could attach your snubber.
Eric
Thanks Eric. I like your thinking.
My first reaction is that it might be a good idea to do something like this but to have 50 feet of nylon/stretchy line after the chain to act as a built-in snubber (which is effectively what a chain-rope combo normally accomplishes): 100 feet of chain, 50 feet of three-strand (or braid), as much Dyneema as the drum can hold, a shortish piece of nylon attached to windlass/boat with the ability to unshackle this and shackle in another 200 feet or so of rope for deep anchoring in an extreme situation (but the latter raises issues of recovery).
I do wish this were the only thing do to on the boat. It’s actually one of a hundred tasks…
Hi John,
I’m asking about your thoughts to the chain/anchor link. The logical way seems to be to attach the chain using a suitable shackle at the end of the shaft. Which might give troubles if the anchor gets fouled under something, be it chain, stone, or wreckage parts.
On internet I have found two different ways of solving this problem (besides pre-rigging a trip line). One of the possibilities shown (and obviously actually used) is to fasten the chain not to the shaft but to the mounting point/hole for the rip line, and just somehow weakly fasten it to the shaft by means of a light rope, or plastic binder, so when stuck a good pull from the right direction would break the binder and transfer the pull to the trip line hole. You can see solutions to this here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoTmy6yYdlQ) and here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLgF9xNmuAg).
To me these methods seem blatant unsafe, if not dangerous, as I would suspect the weak link to the shaft might also break in adverse conditions, effectively unanchoring your boat.
I found another solution called AnchorResue from Scanmar (see here https://www.scanmarinternational.com/anchoring and a video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HEh3cKywYc), for me the only way except a rigged tripline without compromising safety.
I would be interested in your opinion!
Hi Ernest,
I agree with you about the idea of attaching the chain at the trip line point: so much wrong with that idea that it would take me a whole post.
As to devices like the Scanmar, there have been several of these sorts of things over the years. We even tested one called anchorwhitch about 5 years ago. That said, I have just never found that anchor fouling was that big an issue. I think that maybe people worry about it a lot because back in the bad old days of anchors like the CQR that tended to drag back 50-100′ before setting, it did happen often. But with a SPADE or a Rocna that sets in it’s own length, not so much.
Bottom line, in some 50 years of anchoring I have never lost an anchor, so I tend to look at these things as a solution looking for a problem. Not saying I will never lose and anchor, but, on balance, I don’t like adding complications to mission critical systems like anchoring to deal with very small risks.
That said, if we suspect that the bottom is encumbered, we do sometimes (rarely) set a trip line: https://www.morganscloud.com/2011/01/28/anchor-trip-line/
Hi John, I have 10 mm galvanized G70 chain on my boat which is currently connected to the Spade anchor by a stainless Wasi swivel. I am trying to replace the swivel with a galvanized shackle and do not have an oversized link at the end of the chain. I’ve come across this Maggi shackle which seems to solve the issue of mismatched breaking loads for chain and shackles. https://jimmygreen.com/aqua7-grade-70/55699-maggi-oversized-link-for-calibrated-chain. Do you have experience with this shackle?
Hi Joerg
I’m sorry, I don’t, but it does look like a good solution to the problem. Being the paranoid guy I am, I would probably coat the pins with red Loctite, or maybe even green. https://www.morganscloud.com/2008/01/01/loctite/
Hi
My wife and I have been cruising the Caribbean Central America and the med for 20 years. Upon your recommendation five years ago we changed from a CQR to a spade Ancor. It is fabulous.
We have 300 feet of 3/8 G 40 chain which is 34 years old. It looks fine but I am beginning to question if it is time to replace it?
Also it is time to replace the snubber which is 5/8 or three-quarter inch three strand braided nylon.
Our shackles are 209 A Crosby.
We have an 8 inch section of chain between the anchor and the chain Road. This is to allow the anchor to straighten itself as we do not have a swivel between the anchor and the road.Our Kong swivel will not fit through the anchor.
We are currently in the med And have not seen any good sources of chain. Any suggestions?
All the very best
Mel
Hi Mel,
We have heard good things about Maggi chain and since it is made in Italy it should be available in the Med. I was also surprised, and please, to see that it’s available in imperial sizes: https://www.maggigroup.com/en/
As to whether or not you should replace, if it were me and the chain looked fine and did not show any signs of wastage or deformation (check with a good quality dial or digital calliper), I would not replace it just because of it’s age.
hi,
as a newbie to offshore sailing, I’m reading through all the anchor tackle and -rode posts.
One thing I was wondering about, but could not find any answer is:
If weight in the chain is not so important – hence the advantage of G70 chain – why is everybody using “short link” chain and not long-, or C-link chain, which would be lighter, stow better and is easier to accommodate shackles ?
Hi Urs,
I’m not sure I know the answer to that one. Might be just tradition.
That said, chain link size selection tends to be driven more by the availability of the chain itself, with galvanizing, and of a wildcat to fit, rather than any other factor.
Also, I’m fairly sure that long link chain won’t make any difference to which shackles one can use, since, as far as I know, the inside clearance does not change in the width dimension between long and short.
Hi John, A quick question on securing galvanized anchor shackles. I plan to mouse the pin with Monel wire. In that case should / could I also use Loctite (blue? red?) or alternatively Tef-gel to make service / replacement easier down the road? Thanks!
Hi Carol,
Good question. I, being a belt and suspenders kind of guy, use Loctite Blue on the pin of the best bower, which we rarely remove, as well as wire. On no account would I use Tef-Gel since it would increase the likelihood of the pin backing out if the wire chaffed through, which I have seen once.
Hi John, if you have a primary and secondary anchor, do you store their respective rode in 2 separate compartment in the anchor locker? I believe you have both rode using chain. If your primary anchor rode is 150m (say), how long would you have for your primary anchor rode?
Hi Ee Kiat,
We store our secondary rode in bags. Fine for the very occasional times that we use a second anchor: https://www.morganscloud.com/2012/12/14/one-anchor-or-two/
As to length, we can, by stringing the two bags we have together come up with 300′. Or, if we added in our shorefasts (never have) 900′. Our primary chain is just under 400′. That said, we like to visit places with very deep anchorages.
You remind me that I need to do a piece on anchor rode length, it’s a complex subject.
Hi John, what type of shackle do you use to string up your rode to rode and rode to anchor of your secondary anchor? If I need to join up 2 pieces of chain (100m+100Mm), what type of chain joint would you recommend? The chain shop tells me that a welded link can be as strong as an unwelded link and it is very common for sailors to extend the length of their chain that way.. I thought i might seek your advice ..
Hi Ee Kiat,
I don’t recommend any chain joints. We bought our chain in one piece: https://www.morganscloud.com/2007/09/01/which-anchor-shackles/
Hi John, i suppose your secondary rode is for your second anchor. When you say “secondary rode” i assume that there is not chain in the bags. Only nylon anchor lines.
Hi Ee Kiat,
That’s right, our secondary is rope in bags with a 2 meter chain leader.
Hi John,
New member here and really glad I joined.
In this article, you picture the shackle attached to the anchor with the “D” going through the anchor slot and shackle pin on the chain. In the article “ Gale And Storm Preparation, At Anchor Or On A Mooring”, it is setup the other way, “D” on the chain and pin in the anchor slot. Which way is preferred/correct?
Hi Peter,
I’m always learning. This is the right way: https://www.morganscloud.com/2007/09/01/which-anchor-shackles/
Hi John,
Somewhere in one of your articles you mentioned a material that you used for grating in your anchor locker. I scoured the ‘Anchoring’ book articles and used the search function but have not had success finding that information. What was the material you used? I thought this might be a semi-appropriate place for this comment 🙂
Thanks!
Hi Dave,
Sorry, if memory serves, it was not me in that we have never had any grating in our anchor locker. Could be something Colin wrote about his boat. Try searching on Ovni.
Timely query, as I have been looking for this also. On Youtube, Patrick Childress #50 / Don’t Buy New Anchor Chain CHEAP! (at about 12:00 in) mentions using a ‘draining mat’. Looks like a Amazon search for ‘Drainage Tile Shower Matting’ gives many options, or use a google search for ‘shower draining mat’, under the images tab, to get more examples. This also seems like a good option for promoting air flow in my bilge storage areas on my (new to me) steel hulled sloop. Another item off the list!
Hi Glenn,
Thanks for fielding that.
We use in places a snap-together plastic grid that stands about 1/2 inch tall, called “Dri-Dek” (see https://www.dri-dek.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIg4TjoZLj6AIVjobACh3DEw60EAAYAiAAEgJfsfD_BwE). There are very similar and cheaper alternatives available at most large hardware stores. We use it in our anchor well to avoid chipping the paint and as “flooring” in our engine bay, where minor spills are not unknown. Lastly, we use it in our aft deck helm station for non-slip purposes.
Hi Dave,
We use Dri-Deck at the bottom of our locker cut to the appropriate shape. I have not run head to head testing but the section of chain on the bottom does not look any worse than the rest of the chain if that means anything. We also use it at the bottom of our propane lockers and I can say that it has helped the tanks last longer there before starting to rust (the design of our locker does allow limited rain water in and it is possible we get some seawater through the drain when it is rough). Maybe more importantly, I haven’t found any negatives of having it in either location.
Eric
Thanks,
I like that the Dri-Deck is raised up a little to allow for drainage. Great idea about the propane locker also.
John, I have just ordered a Spade anchor after several episodes of dragging our CQR up in Scotland (in fairly benign conditions, so there was some operator error for sure), but I am off the boat and trying to figure out what size Crosby shackle to procure to attach the anchor to the rode when I get back to the boat. We have an all 7/16″ chain anchor rode with an oversized link at the end, so I am trying to figure out what is the largest Crosby shackle that can fit into the hole in the anchor stock of the Spade, the width of that hole is 19 mm I believe. 19 ton boat.
Also I am seeing different things about whether the bow of the shackle or the pin goes through the anchor stock. Thanks.
Hi William,
Sorry, I don’t know that off hand, but the Crosby web site has the exact dimensions of their shackles and SPADE should be able to tell you the largest one that will fit for a given anchor size.
Hi again, William,
Why not get as close as you can and then just order three shackles: best guess, one size smaller, one size larger. Not that expensive and there are always uses for shackles.
I have a question about the shackle.
NoMad has a SPADE S-180 (45 kg) and 100 meter anchor chain Din766 G43 10 mm (Working Load Limit 2450 kg, Manufacturing proof force 4900 kg, Breaking Force 9800 kg). There is no oversized end link.
I never used a swivel. I have two shackles: a 12 mm and 14 mm:
Wichard D Shackle 12 mm ( Working Load 2080, WLL 1200, Breaking Load 6000) or Wichard D shackle 14 mm (WL 2400, WLL 1600, Breaking Load 8000).
The 14 mm shackle has the best match with the chain strength and looks better. But the 14 mm pin exerts forces more sideways in chainlink, there is a gap at the top of the link. The 12 mm exerts force in the longitudinal direction of the link.
Do you think that the side forces of the 14 mm pin in the link could weaken the link?
Hi Bernard,
As long as the shackle body is free to pivot in the anchor stock there should be no problem so use the biggest shackle that that has a pin that will fit through the chain. That said, I don’t like the use of SS shackles so I would switch to the correct size of galvanized shackle. And if you get a good quality alloy one it will match the strength of G43 chain: as advised above.
Thanks for your advice John. Meanwhile I have found the Crosby shackles in Belgium. I ordered different sizes as you suggested.
Hi John – a rookie cruiser question. Given the doubt surrounding the efficacy of the catenary “effect” in bigger breeze and the concern about weight in the bow…particularly if I do not know how my boat will perform (2011 Dufour 405) in heavier seas with say 350ft of G43 chain weight… but I am willing to replace the anchor rode regularly – would I not be better served by using less chain (say 100ft) and rope (250ft) of equal working load and lesser weight?
Hi Edmond,
I agree that’s a lot of weight to put in the bow of that boat.
As a general rule I’m not a fan of hybrid rodes and would either go all chain or all rope with a short chain leader: https://www.morganscloud.com/2010/09/07/rope-chain-anchor-rodes/
You might also want to consider G70 chain perhaps combined with cutting back to say 250 ft. Lots more on that option and chain weight generally here:
https://www.morganscloud.com/2013/09/25/which-anchor-chain-should-we-buy/
Another option would be to do as Dick does and have 250 ft of g40 and another 100′ of rope for the very rare occasions when you want more and are willing to put up with the problems of recovery.
John,
In this case, the more I read, the more confusing the subject gets or too many choices…
I recently changed boats from a Downeast 32 to a Wauquiez Pretorien 35. My Downeast was loaded in the stern and the bow and being only 32′, it was a wild ride with hobby horsing in a steep chop.
Going from an ultra heavy cruiser to a racer / cruiser (in today’s world a cruiser / racer) I am trying to have a boat that is actually fun to sail.
With this being said, I am looking to lighten up the load in the bow and the anchor is what I am going after. I transferred by beloved 45lb. steel Spade which is rated for a much heaver displacement than the 13,500 lb Pretorien.
I am emailing you to ask your opinion on this setup: 45lb galvanized, steel Spade on the bow, 50′ of chain linked to 400′ of rode with a shackle. Rode would be 8 plait (I would think 5/8″?) or, any opinions on Dyneema with a snubber?
I do have a Lofrans manual windlass and I would use the drum for the plait and transfer over to the gypsy when I go to the chain.
I think this would lighten the load, allow for stretch, and be safe?
My travels will be mostly the northeast (New Jersey, New England, Maine, maybe a trip to Bermuda & Nova Scotia)
I did read the forum post and anchors and rode and found you did use a short chain on a CQR without too much issues when you first stared sailing.
Any info & advice would be much appreciated.
Hi Dan,
You are definitely doing the right thing by putting the weight in the anchor.
I’m not a fan of hybrid rodes, particularly with the need to transfer from drum to wildcat, more here: https://www.morganscloud.com/2010/09/07/rope-chain-anchor-rodes/
And I would definitely never use Dyneema for a rode.
Next season I will be experimenting with a Dacron rode and short chain leader on my J/109, so that might be an option for you. I think it should be a workable option in the cruising grounds you are planning for, but right now it’s all theory.
That said, chain is always the best option for anchoring and all other options are compromises, so in every case moving from all chain is a trade off.
John,
Thanks for your feedback. Based on my sailing and mostly coastal cruising, I decided on 250′ of 5/8 braid with 25′ of 3/8 chain attached to my 45lb steel Spade. My thinking – if 90% of my anchoring will be in 25′ of water or less, than I can transfer the chain when close to directly over the anchor and use the manual windlass. Also, 25′ of chain will add 40lbs of weight to the 45′ anchor – all the weight will be in the right spot. – Trying to justify and sell myself on not using an all chain rode…
Hello,
We are replacing our 3/8″ anchor/windlass chain. Through all my reading on this sight and else where I am getting confused about the difference between Grade 40 and G43. It seems to me that the nomenclature for these is unclear. So my question is when people speak of “G40” do they mean “Grade 40” or “G43?
Thank you,
Rob Ingwersen
Hi Robert,
As far as I know, there is no difference between the two. That said, Peerless seem to always use G43 when writing about High Test chain so I try to remember to stay consistent with that. What you could do if faced with a chain graded G40 is compare it’s specifications with the Peerless catalog to make sure I’m right. More here: https://www.morganscloud.com/2011/05/11/things-to-know-about-anchor-chain/
John,
I double checked the peerless specs online. Grade 40 “A4” chain, which I assume is what people are referring to when they say “G40″ only come is metric sizing. 10mm is what I used as a comparison to 3/8”. A4 has a WLL of 3527 lbs.
A4 11mm has a WLL of 4268.
G43 3/8″ chain has a WLL of 5400 lbs.
This is what worries me about the use of the term G4. I almost purchased Grade 40 A4, thinking it was equal to G43. It is not, as far as I can tell.
If somebody could please give some more insight into this it would be much appreciated.
If I am correct I believe people should look at their ride to see if they have G43 or Grade 40 A4 chain as it is significantly different.
Rob
Hi Robert,
Wow, that’s interesting. Could you please link me too where you are getting this, please? I want to see if I can make head or tail of it.
John,
The Grade 40 A4 and G43 links from Peerless are attached below. Let me know what you think. Scroll down and click on specifications.
Rob
https://peerlesschain.com/pleasure/acco-grade-40-a4-din-766-dimensions
https://peerlesschain.com/pleasure/acco-g43-domestic-high-test-iso-chain
Hi Robert,
You are right. Clearly A40 and and G43 are made from completely different alloys. I built a little spreadsheet comparing 3/8 to 10 mm and when we compare actual wire size the two are identical in cross section, but the G43 is nearly a ton stronger. So clearly G43 is what we want not A40.
This is further confused by people saying G4 chain, (including me on occasion) since I don’t think there is any such thing. But then G4 is what stamped on G43 so forgivable.
I will update our chain article. Thanks for the heads up.
John,
Thanks for confirming that. Now I just need to figure out what I’m going to purchase for chain!
Rob
Hi Rob,
I think G43 is best for most people since G70 comes with a whole pile of hassles. See other chain chapters in anchoring book for more.
Hi Robert and John,
Hmm, I read this a little differently but I am definitely not an expert in it and I would love to know the correct answer. Grade of chain is supposed to be based on a ratio of breaking strength to link cross section so you should be able to do a bit of quick math and compare chains. The difference between grade 43 and 40 should only be 8% in breaking strength if the size was exactly the same.
When I look at specs for chains, I usually see:
3/8″ G43
5400lb WLL
16200lb BS
10mm G40
3527lb WLL
14110lb BS
The breaking strengths are quite close but the WLL is very different. Dividing those out, I see that the G43 chain has a factor of 3:1 for the WLL and the G40 chain has a factor of 4:1. In Drew’s comment to this post: https://www.morganscloud.com/2013/09/25/which-anchor-chain-should-we-buy/ he states that the safety factor is a function of yield strength and not breaking strength. However, it appears that all metric chain uses the same safety factor and that only G43 uses the lower safety factor which is a bit weird to me unless it is a really different alloy that is extremely similar in strength and that the standard either calls out the alloy or the yield strength. In this article https://kb.rocna.com/kb/Chain, Peter Smith claims that G43 is given the lower safety factor because it is high tested. I have no idea what is actually right and I don’t have time to read a whole bunch of standards right now which is probably where the true answer lies unless you can get someone knowledgeable from a chain company on the phone.
I guess I would be inclined to understand why the safety factor for the WLL is different first. If it is different for a good engineering reason such as there being a significant different in yield strength, then G43 would definitely be superior. If it is different for a non-good reason, then the G40 chain would be just fine. And if someone knows the reason or figures it out, I would love to know. One thing that really bugs me on this subject is that some stainless shackles have a much lower safety factor to calculate the WLL but because the WLL is now so high, people think that they are better than a high strength galvanized shackle and I see no good reason for that to be true.
Eric
Hi Eric,
First off, in the recent tip I’m discussing A40 chain, not G40 (I made the same mistake in my first answer to the comment). I have not gone down the G40 to G43 rabbit hole yet.
That said, good point, that I had forgotten the differences in break load and WLL even though I discussed safety factors at some length with a engineer from Peerless for this article: https://www.morganscloud.com/2011/05/11/things-to-know-about-anchor-chain/
At that time said engineer told me that: For non-heat treated chain like BBB or G43 the MBL is three times the WLL and for heat treated chain the safety margin is a very conservative 4:1.
But our conversation was totally about imperial chain, so it maybe that metric uses a different factor.
He did confirm that the load they quote is that when the links start to distort, even though they seem to call it Minimum Break Load.
One thing I’m sure of, the Peerless engineer did say that the safety factor is all about what the chain is used for. For example, G70 uses 4:1 because it’s used as binder chain where the consequences of failure are very nasty. I was under the impression from him that all G43 uses 3:1, but maybe that’s vendor specific.
More here: https://www.morganscloud.com/2013/09/25/which-anchor-chain-should-we-buy/
All pretty foggy and that’s just one vendor!
I guess the bottom line on all of this is we must check both break (really yield load) and WLL before making a final call on what to order from a given vendor.
In fact I think I need to change the tip I just did and the articles in the anchoring book to say that since I really don’t think we are going to get to a final answer on all of this that applies across all vendors and countries.
Hi John,
Thanks for the correction on nomenclature, some of the specs I quoted were found by looking at Acco’s A40 and some by looking for grade 40 from others but it appears that they adhere to the same standards so should be identical.
It seems like you may have even gotten 2 answers from the Peerless engineer you talked to if I read it correctly. If it is related to heat treat, that is more along the lines of what Drew said and could be a valid reason for different safety factors for otherwise similar products. If it is applications specific, then we should all be using the same safety factor as anchoring is a single application. FYI, I just looked and BBB chain and G30 from Acco both appear to use a 4X safety factor to get WLL. The only chain that is commonly used for anchoring that I know uses anything other than a 4:1 factor is G43 which uses 3:1. I guess it is a good thing that most people never get anywhere close to even the WLL in terms of loads.
Given that there are international standards for chain, I actually think that there is likely an answer that applies across companies, at least for products claiming to meet the standard. The correct person probably knows it off the top of their head but for the rest of us, it is quite confusing.
Eric
Hi Eric,
You may be right that this is solvable across the board, but I have looked at it a couple of times and turned away with a head ache! Anyway the two chapters in this online book are the closest I have come. Maybe next winter, when I have more time, I will see if I can corner another engineer at Peerless and expand that information.