Given that Phyllis and I are considering replacing Morgan's Cloud with a smaller boat, I have been thinking a lot about the process of buying a boat that will meet our specification:
- 15,000 to 22,000 lbs (6800 to 10000 kgs) displacement, which will typically result in a boat around 36 to 42 feet (11 to 13 m) long.
- Good sailing performance.
- Almost certainly fibreglass.
- Not a project boat. We are happy to do the usual tweaks that any new-to-us boat requires, but no refits and certainly no rebuilds. (That said, read on.)
- Trans-ocean capable (in reasonable comfort and safety).
- Price under US$250,000.
I have also:
- Paged through thousands of broker listings.
- Researched the boats suggested by you, our members (thank you).
- Inspected two boats.
This work has yielded a couple of conclusions:
Gonna Be Really Hard
I said right from the beginning that this was going to be a difficult spec to fill, but I was wrong. In fact, and contrary to what many people will tell you, because of two of the above requirements, it's going to be very, very damned difficult.
The culprits are:
- Trans-ocean capable (in reasonable comfort and safety).
- Not a project boat.
Drop either, and literally hundreds, maybe thousands, of boats jump into the frame.
The other problem is that really good, well-maintained boats, from consistently good builders, are way more expensive than most people—including me, up until a few months ago—think.
And often, maybe mostly, when we find a boat that seems to break that rule, a closer look reveals a lurking problem that explains the price—teak decks that need replacing, often with water in the deck core under them, are a classic example.
So, if we had more than US$250,000 to spend, that would obviously help, but we don't, so what to do?
John, I was surprised that you crossed out an used Ovni. There are enough Ovni in the size you stipulated and under 250,000.
Why?
Cheers
Homero
Hi Homero,
Yes, there is a lot to like about Ovnis, but at this point I’m looking for more performance, particularly to windward.
Also probably not aluminium: https://www.morganscloud.com/2019/05/30/hull-materials-which-is-best/
Doesn’t preclude aluminum hulls that are designed to go to windward. Ted Brewer hulls will fit the bill. Look at mine: >
> http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f152/aluminum-30-ted-brewer-cutter-for-sale-202692.html
I had similar criteria to yours, but was prepared to go to 12,500kg and 45ft. I chose a Dudley Dix design, Shearwater 45. Ironically that was 12 years ago and now I’m going bigger, but it’s a magnificent blue water cruiser and very fast!
John,
I find it puzzling that you are persisting with a FG boat given that the main issues you are concerned about relate to the fact that the boat you want is going to be made of fibreglass.
It seems to me finding a sound aluminium boat would be far less problematic, less risky and less costly (in terms of survey costs).
Hi Henry,
I explain why fibreglass in this article: https://www.morganscloud.com/2019/05/30/hull-materials-which-is-best/
John,
As far as I can see your reason for going FG is this:
“Bottom line, if you are not willing to learn the basics of aluminum boat care and won’t be constantly present to rigorously enforce that knowledge on others, choose fibreglass.”
If you chose an unpainted aluminium boat what would the issues be?
Yet you are willing to pay for expensive surveys for a FG boat and even then there’s always the doubt.
It doesn’t make sense.
Hi Henry,
It makes sense to me. Each to their own. Key point is that I don’t want to have to “be constantly present to rigorously enforce that knowledge on others”.
John,
Have you written about those matters which you are concerned about, related to aluminium boat maintenance, which you would rather not entrust to others?
Hi Henry,
Yes: https://www.morganscloud.com/2017/11/11/22-aluminum-boat-care-tips-part-1/
John,
I’ve read your 3 part article.
Once you have set up the boat as it should be set up, there should be no maintenance problems and dramas, right?
Or, is it that the ongoing monitoring is tedious and no longer of interest to you so you’re moving away from aluminium?
Hi Henry,
I have already linked to my reasons and that’s not it. This is my decision for my boat. Let’s leave it there shall we.
John,
I’m not at all trying to influence your decision, I am interested, though, in understanding why I might want to go one way or the other.
Hi Henry,
I feel like I explained my position on aluminium in this article: https://www.morganscloud.com/2019/05/30/hull-materials-which-is-best/
And I really don’t have anything to add.
I presume when you say “keel step” you are referring to the point at which the mast is attached or sets on the keel.
Is that correct?
Hi John,
Oops, that was supposed to be “mast step”, fixed now. Thanks for catching it.
Many good points… What about the Adventure 40 criteria of a few years ago? Also, another Oops, under the heading Access, it’s still shown as “keel step”…
Hi Robert,
If the A40 existed for 250,000 (perfectly doable in volume) I would buy one in a heart beat.
John:
An excellent, concise piece on this subject. Well-done.
Having inspected hundreds of vessels, completing my work alongside countless surveyors, and having read countless surveys, I will second your call to be especially careful when choosing that individual. I’ve covered this subject in print a few times, most recently just a few months ago, here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Surveyors-PT0519_Gearhead_p35-39.pdf
One of my (many) gripes with surveyors is their reluctance to disassemble anything for inspection, including and especially access for electrical panels and junction boxes. If screws need to be removed to inspect these, many will pass it by.
This line in particular resonated, “To reduce the chances of paying for multiple expensive surveys, it’s possible, after an hour or so of inspection of five critical areas, to make a reasonable guess at whether or not the boat is likely to have major problems.”
I spent two days aboard a vessel last week in Florida, conducting an inspection for a client. I started at the bow, inspecting the windlass and knew within a few minutes the vessel was neglected, as I encountered many examples of deferred maintenance. Had I spent an hour aboard I could have easily provided a pre-survey assessment, which the buyer could have used to make a decision on whether or not to proceed (the “survey” was attended by a hull surveyor, and an engine surveyor, it included a haul out and 5 hour sea trial, so no small investment). The 10-year old vessel is built by a highly respected manufacturer, it was well-made, but was over-priced based on its condition, time will tell if the client and seller can come to terms.
Here’s another article on the subject of conducting pre-survey review, much of which can be done from afar. It’s not in complete alignment with your recommendations, as someone who works more often with power vessels I place more emphasis on the engine for instance, but I believe it’s relevant.
Part I: https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/a-boat-buyers-top-ten-guide-to-a-pre-offer-evaluation-part-i/
Part II: https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/a-boat-buyers-top-ten-guide-to-a-pre-offer-evaluation-part-ii/
I’m headed to Taiwan and China today to inspect a series of new build projects, including one sailing vessel;-).
I’m looking forward to the interview.
Most people either love or hate them For their looks but I am in much the same situation as you with much the same criteria and have settled on an Amel. There are plenty of very good Santorins (45 ft 11 inches) available (albeit you might have to go to the med to get one) that are extremely capable offshore boats, and are designed to be sailed by an older cruising couple that could be found for well under your $250K limit ($160K would buy a very good one). They are a bit bigger than your 42’ limit but they have the older style overhangs so are in the same displacement range 19,000 lbs unloaded, 25K max). They are designed to cross oceans and despite their older design, they really do decent passage times as they can carry a lot of sail and have it easily dropped and reefed even with only one crew on watch without leaving the cockpit. They built about 150 of them and a majority have been around the world. unlike most boats of that vintage, they really spent a lot of time designing a completely watertight hull/deck joint – the boat is glassed together in the mold and was designed to be lifted up by its chainplates. You won’t find a stronger fibreglass boat out there and best of all they have a completely separate (and watertight) engine compartment that you can actually work in which keeps the fumes, smells, noise out of the living spaces.
It is a centre cockpit design with a protected permanent dodger and has a protected helm position behind it. Since most cruising boats spend time on autopilot and the crew in watch is there to be on watch, it makes sense to protect them so they aren’t in the elements and they can effectively do their jobs for the watch.
They come in either ketch or sloop rigs and have the built in ability to be sailed almost completely without leaving the cockpit when dealing with normal things like reefing in or tacking/jibing. You do leave to setup the downwind pokes but the sails can be completely reefed in from the safety of the cockpit with poles up which explains why they make such good passage times as you can leave the sails up at night knowing they can come in without waking the off watch and without leaving the cockpit. As for maintenance, they have the fake teak molded fiberglass decks so no leaks and a fresh coat of paint makes them as good as new – albeit it best to find someone with OCD to do it!
I agree wholeheartedly on your comments about surveyors and I’d add one more – they should REALLY know and specialize on the manufacturer so they understand and live and breathe the boat. The best surveyor for Amel is Olivier Beaute. He was the delivery inspector for Amel when these boats were being built and crawled through each of them as they were being built. He knows the weak points , what was standard Amel and can quickly identify anything non standard or not to spec. He is in France but does travel and spends at least two days on the boat. Most knowledgeable potential Amel owners use him so it is very likely he’s already done a survey on the boat if it has multiple owners and knows exactly how it came out of the factory as well. Best of all, he won’t spend two days on a boat that is going to cost more than a good specimen to bring up to spec and will tell you everything that needs fixing both at time of purchase but also a few years down the road. If you are interested in Amel’s I’d also highly recommend Bill Rouse’s Amel Yacht School (they made him drop Amel so it’s just Yacht School now) for pre and post purchase help. He’ll spend a few days with you bringing everything up to spec and teaching you how to maintain it to spec but also about the different things Amel’s have done that make them so capable.
These boats were designed for a cruising couple to circumnavigate where the smaller crew could lift a bag of groceries should still be able to handle every task on the boat. they are worth a look.
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the kind words. I too am looking forward to our chat.
Dear John and Phyllis,
I wonder if you might consider the Cape North 43? A Ted Brewer center cockpit design, built in Hong Kong in the mid-late 70’s. I think you’ll like the esthetics and the general design approach, and I believe these boats were very well-built, having sailed all over the world. Mine has crossed two oceans and at least one of them has circumnavigated.
There is one on Yachtworld right now, which is unusual because only 28 were built. While, having followed you for some time, I know that no boat is going to be satisfactory to you right out of the box, this boat appears to have been very well maintained (much better than the one I bought!), which in my humble view is much more important than mere age.
I think this boat might meet many of your criteria and is worth a look.
Best,
Art Watson
John
You and Phyllis have seen my boat (CYGNUS) -a Hinckley 50 yawl, usually moored in Northeast Harbor. My wife is nagging me that a 50 footer is too much boat for a 75 year old single hander. And we are planning a permanent move to Nashville, TN (not exactly my choice but our daughter lives there.) CYGNUS is now on the hard at WAYFAYER in CAMDEN. There are not too many people on the planet that I would consider offering CYGNUS to, but you and Phyllis are two of them. Let me know if you have any interest.
Best
Pat Kelly
Tel 646 675-0275
Hi Pat,
I’m touched that you would say that, thanks. That said, we are looking at a much smaller boat. Good luck with the move. I too would find it hard to leave Maine, one of my favourite parts of the planet.
Hi All,
We seem to have gone off on the tangent of suggesting boats for Phyllis and me to buy. But that’s not what this post is about, and also we already did that on this post: https://www.morganscloud.com/2019/05/18/wow-buying-an-offshore-sailboat-is-really-hard/
So for this post it would be great if everyone could stay on the topics it covers: things that need surveying and pre-surveying on fibreglass boats.
Also, a lot of the boats being suggested are not enough different from “Morgan’s Cloud” to warrant changing. At some point I will expand on what we are looking for, assuming we do change at all, and at that point we can revisit boat suggestions.
Thanks
I’ve learned quite a bit at this website…Apologies if it’s been referenced before:
http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/index.htm
Hi John,
Looks interesting. I will put some time aside for a read. Thanks
Hi John,
As ever, you manage to distill a complex topic into a handful of focus items. Brilliant. This “don’t sweat the small stuff approach” makes such a lot of sense, but I can’t help worrying that “the devil really is in the detail” for some projects, and I suspect there are some details that shouldn’t be brushed aside for a survey. One such example –
Our daughter worked as Chief Steward on a 20 year old, 140 foot motor superyacht a few years ago. New to the owner, she was twin engined, yet suffered multiple breakdowns on and off passage. They cycled through 3 engineers in her 9 month stint, all leaving in frustration. The consensus was the boat needed new engines, the old ones had been trashed (overpowered)? To replace the engines, half the accomodation needed to be cut away in a shipyard first > $2MUSD project. Boat value ~ $1.0MUSD. Boat value with new engines ~ $1.3 MUSD. A surveyor missed this. I know it’s a smaller issue on a yacht, but some engine rooms / hard dodger designs could make installs worse than for an equivalent sized motor boat.
Br. Rob
Hi Rob,
Thanks for the kind words.
Yes, the engine can certainly be a big issue, and I did elude to that. But, at least in my case, I’m willing to take that risk until the full survey. Point being if the surveyor condemns the engine, we can than negotiate a price reduction to cover a new one and professional installation. Having done three repowers I feel confident in being able to supervise a fourth to successfully completion.
As always, your thinking is focused and useful. When 5 surveys could consume 20% of the budget pre-qualification becomes important. Thanks for the checklist.
I am curious why Trans-ocean capability makes such a difference. A list of acceptable coastal cruiser traits that would not be acceptable trans-ocean would be very welcome. Perhaps the list already exists somewhere in the AAC library. I reviewed your “Needs”* and 8 voyaging interior tips** and found some items that appear distinct:
1. Storm survival gear
2. Lifelines, jacklines, harnesses & tethers
3. Reliable self-steering
4. Comfortable, safe sea berth
5. Interior with minimal fall distances
The first three are retro-fitable leaving just two.
Everything else seems equally important to a coastal cruiser (water out; mast up; keel down; fail-safe rudder; well engineered anchoring; reliable engine; uncluttered non-skid decks; proper clothing; GPS, chart & nav instruments; and accessible electric, mechanical, & plumbing systems.)
Or am I expecting too much of a coastal cruiser? I live on New Zealand’s West Coast where the roaring forties routinely deliver gales and 8m+ waves.
Thanks again for the pre-survey checklist.
*https://www.morganscloud.com/2013/02/02/is-it-a-need-or-a-want/
** https://www.morganscloud.com/2013/05/12/8-tips-for-a-good-voyaging-boat-interior-arrangement/
Hi PD,
Good question. I guess the key difference that increases cost is overall quality, stiffness and strength. Most fibreglass boats are not really built to take the rigours of offshore sailing. They probably won’t kill you, but they will have enough problems to take much of the enjoyment away. Note I said “in reasonable comfort”. So a boat that will leak from every hatch and port, both because said hardware is cheap, and because the boat flexes, is not going to be a lot of fun for an old fart like me.
On the other hand, if I was just going to sail around Nova Scotia where I could avoid heavy weather and big seas a much lower quality boat would do just fine.
http://nova-yachting.nl/nova-occasions/147529/hallbergrassy-36/
Maybe a little small, but otherwise it should tick most boxes.
René
John, Before having these 5 Important things checked, you must have a pre filter for potential boats that fit your new needs. Perhaps you have written about that process or made a list of characteristics?
To what extent does builder, design, layout, and general condition enter into this prequalify stage? Do you make a short list of boats manuf and model you would consider and then look for the best ones at reasonable price? Then have the survey done? Dumb question I suppose, but there is a lot riding on the prequalification.
Hi Fredrick,
Good point. I have already written about how to do that pre-filter process: https://www.morganscloud.com/2014/08/05/the-right-way-to-buy-a-boat/
Also read the next chapter: https://www.morganscloud.com/2013/02/02/is-it-a-need-or-a-want/
I will be sharing my own process in a later article, but right now I’m focusing on stuff that is more generically useful, rather than my own specification, which is pretty specialized.
An excellent and timely discussion thanks John. We have just sold our Catalina and are looking for a yacht more suited to blue water. At the moment one out of Sweden is looking promising. I will be watching for your future articles.
Hi Murray,
Thanks very much for the encouragement. It’s always great to hear that an article has been useful. Good to year that you have found a good prospect. There is a lot to like about many Swedish built boats.
Yes, I 2nd the endorsement of this article! I’m in the thick of hunt as well and your comments resonate. As I’m no where close to your skill level, I’ve contracted John Neal’s services to focus my search. HR 39 vs Bene 42/44 CC is where we are at the moment I’m off to Italy next month to kick the tires, so this post and Steve’s links are appreciated.
As for the final survey, do you have an example report you can share? I’ve had several done in the past and thought they were good, minus engine analysis. Also would you break down the components of the $5-10k sum? …..thanks again…and eagerly waiting for subsequent posts!
Hi Calvin
From my point of view the first step in any boat search is the Mission Statement in which you honestly outline (on paper!) exactly how you intended to use the boat over the next 5 or 10 years.
Once that task has been completed (and slept on) there will be hundreds of boats that will fall off your list. If you want the very best Caribbean cruiser you will not choose a Boreal, and if you want to visit Greenland you certainly will not chose a Beneteau/Hunter. And if you are rational enough to reject teak decks you will find it impossible to buy a used HR.
John has done a great job defining the items that apply to any class of boat. To that I’d add “no boats with a full liner glued in place or set in bearshit. ” And to that I’d add, “center cockpit designs must be at least 44′ LOA to avoid cramitus.” And to that I’d personally add “It must be beautiful” . For me that criteria strikes off some of the best designed cruising boats in the world — Sundeer and Boewulf for example.
Your finalist list contains two quite different boats from a quality, layout, and size standpoint . Perhaps it’s time to go back and fine tune the Mission Statement. I’ve run into John Neal a few times over the decades as he’s accumulated a quadjillion miles on his Hallberg Rassey boats. They certainly have served him well, but such a lifelong relationship is bound to narrow one’s idea of what constitutes the best boat for a particular mission.
Hi Calvin,
Thanks for the encouragement.
No, no reports to share. However, any survey report should definitely cover the five items in the above article. Sadly, from what I understand, many don’t.
As to my estimate of survey costs, I did categorize within the text: survey, travel, haul, disassembly, and reassembly.
The point being that to pay say $700 for a survey and then bitch when it is incomplete and problems are found later is not a reasonable expectation. I based my number a lot on Steve D’s services.
Is humidity readings (HR) will part of your 1 hour pre-survey routine ?
It seems most surveyor on FG boats spend significant time moving around reading humidity level on the hull, deck, rudder and other areas.
On a 20+ years old boat chances are some readings will go into the medium category, and possibly some other areas (hopefully few) will read high.
How far humidity reading will be a deal breaker ?
As a example, medium HR on a corecell core deck versus high HR on a balsa core deck ?
Hi Philippe,
No, I will not be trying to use a moisture meter. That’s the surveyor’s job since it takes experience to use one of those meters. I will be writing more about that after I talk to Steve D.
I found happiness by downsizing much farther, to a 24-foot trimaran I use as a daysailer. There are time when I miss my cruising boat. You can’t sail far in a day and you don’t get to enjoy waking up on the hook, but I’m not interested in cruising a tiny boat far. I’ve done that, for weeks at a time, but that was decades ago and that itch has been scratched. I also enjoyed cruising on my PDQ, very much, but that itch has also been scratched.
It is a joy to have a boat I can just jump in and sail. I’ve long been puzzle that that there are so few boats in this catagory, designed for older sailors that don’t want a cruising boat anymore, but don’t want a dinghy. A smaller boat, where everything is lighter and it is just fun to sail. Additional, there is no financial concern. Yes, I maintain the boat carefully, because that is my nature, not because resale value is vital.
Maybe you still need a blue water cruiser. But maybe it’s just the way you see a real boat. I get that. Once you get hooked on quality anything less is grating on the nerves. So maybe smaller. Maybe not.
Hi Drew,
I agree, that makes a lot of sense and definitely an option we are talking about. That said, my week on “Sable” confirmed that I still like going places on a boat and staying aboard, rather than just day sailing. That said, I can see a time, and it might not be that far off, when day sailing would be just fine. So for us the big question is boiling down to keeping “Morgan’s Cloud” until then, or an interim smaller cruising boat. Anyway, definitely a first world problem.
Hi John,
I have been down the path of matching budget to boat requirements and arrived at your ‘older boat’ approach, now 24 months into a lovely new relationship and nearing the end of the inevitable list of projects here are the tests I applied before survey to screen out keel bolt worries.
1. Clarify:
a. the material the keel is made of
b. the material of the bolts
c. The location of all the bolts
d. The prior owner’s understanding of the importance of the bolts, and any relevant history they have
2. Ask if the prior owner had never grounded the boat, understand the circumstances
3. Search for signs of movement, leakage, or stress inside the hull around the bolts
4. Check that washers and backing plates are not bent into the bolts
5. Search for stress cracks especially around first and last bolt, take pictures
6. Ring the studs with a hammer
7. Remove a nut, or three – first, last and one between, inspect the thread on the bolt
8. Look for sole boards or doors that no longer fit well; if any, clarify why
9. Look in lockers, galley cupboards and under the chart table for frame detachment
10. Look for crazing in the GRP at the mast’s deck fastenings
11. Search for signs of grounding on the front and the base of the keel
12. Look at the straightness of the aft end of the keel
13. Search for stress signs in the hull around the keel
14. Look for signs of movement between the keel and hull, eg weeping soon after lifted
Most of us know much of this, so I hope you find it useful in one list rather than feel its an attempt to teach egg sucking. Happy hunting
Hi Antony,
Great list, thanks.
Hello John,
when buying my boat (an old aluminium cruiser around $100000) the main factor for taking the risk, was it seemed to be an honest boat.
Honest in the sense there were no attempts to beautify it, no purely cosmetic fixes or attempts to cover up problems. Sure there were plenty worn out areas, ugly kludges and broken things, but those were recognisable as such.
Also, the the chance of problems met expectations. Things that looked dodgy needed work, things that look reasonable good were mostly ok.
The boat has proven that the morning after it still had some resemblance to the impression it gave in romantic candle light the night before.
Hi Jo,
Good point. Better to see what you are getting.
Hi John- good luck in your search. Our 1987 tartan 40 has vinylester in the outer skins, so it’s clear that some builders started using this in the 80s rather than 90s as you may have thought.
Mike
Hi Mike,
That’s good to know. Thanks.
Hi John
This topic is really interesting, your article, and as usual, the comments.
Can I suggest two points for your pre-survey:
1. Moisture meter – even although it does require expertise and experience to use properly, the non-professional can use it to find differences in readings on the deck, for example in way of fittings such as cleats and winches. If readings iwo a mooring cleat are significantly higher than, say, the deck 18” away, then it’s pretty sure that wet core is present.
2. Plastic hammer – tapping the deck can reveal a multitude of potential problems, voids, delamination, wet core (again) without any damage to the deck. The difference between sound laminate and dodgy is really obvious.
I am sure that I don’t need to explain why I know this. ?
As regards the hull, that I would not attempt to survey myself.
Yours aye
Bill
Hi Bill,
Good suggestions. I will be talking to Steve D about all this in a couple of weeks and it will be interesting to get his reading on the practicality of amateurs using these tools.
I recommend you look at some Oyster yachts in your price range. The glued down teak decks really aren’t a problem.
Hi John
Any reader contemplating buying a new (built in the last 30 years) mass production fiberglass sailboat for use as anything but a coastal day sailor should spend 10 minutes watching this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CilPa6OJj4
The video is expertly narrated by an experienced young boat builder who was attracted by the curious sight of a boat sitting on a remote beach with the mast up and little visible damage to the topsides. It is a Jeanneau 54 Deck Salon that was left at anchor unattended. It apparently fouled the anchor or chain on the bottom, pounded by wave action, and ripped the anchor windlass completely out of the deck. It drifted into shallow water, pounded a few times which punched the entire keel up through the bottom until it fell off, then sat on the bottom for a couple of weeks.
Observe the intact keel bolts bolted through about 5/8 ” of poorly saturated matt and roving with no sign of keel support structure. The un-cored underwater hull is solid fiberglass, but the polyester resin used in construction had so little adhesion that individual layers came apart like newspaper. Just speculating, but I deduce that this a perfect example of how not to do resin infusion. I’ve never seen an old fashioned polyester matt & roving layup done by hand that was this resin starved.
Do you really want to have a conversation with a whale or floating log in this $500,000 floating apartment, even if the advertisements tout “Energized by Kevlar?
Hi John,
The Rustler 42 seems like it would tick off all those boxes you’ve listed. Seaberth in main saloon and central engine giving excellent access. Cutter rig, solid build quality, good sailer. If not a candidate for my own understanding would love to know where it fails.
Best,
Eric
Hi Eric,
As I said earlier in the thread, I want to take a break from discussing what boat I might, or might not, want to buy since that was starting to take over the comments in posts, like this one, that really were not about that. Also, I have not yet even decided to change boats for sure, let alone finalized what we might want in a new boat.
All that said, yes, I think the Rustler is a fine boat. In fact we even a couple of articles:https://www.morganscloud.com/2014/12/15/rustler-yachts-maybe-theres-hope-yet/
John,
A primary criterion for me was what is biggest sail I, at age 65, am willing to grapple with in a gale of wind? Determined by factors suce as displacement and rig, assuming the roller furling gear failed.
Cheers,
Steve Guy.
Hi John, why do you avoid tanks below sole and near keel? I’m with you thinking on how to get it out if need be, but on the other hand reputable builders like Swans have them always under. This makes me think that I maybe over think it.
Thanks.
Hi Ruslan,
I believe John disapproved not of tanks under the sole in general, but rather specifically of tanks that make keel bolts inaccessible and cannot themselves be removed without disassembling furniture. Basically, that means if access to keel bolts is a nightmare, John won’t even look at the rest of the boat.
Cheers
Alex
Hi Alex,
Thanks for fielding that, that’s exactly my thinking. In fact I’m a fan of tanks in the bilge. Where I get upset is when I see tanks that that were installed first in the fit out with no thought to how they could ever be removed.
Hey John and everyone in the comments, looking for your opinions/expertise
I have been combed through this e-book extensively and armed with all that knowledge I have found an offshore boat that I think fits perfectly into the $100K bracket. I inspected the boat the other day for the first time and the only thing I found that gave me concern was one of the bolts in one of the chainplates on the bulkhead.
This is an 80’s boat but it is highly regarded as one of the best made boats in the country at the time. This is a seriously rugged built boat that shows no signs of any water ingress anywhere on the chainplates/bulkheads. However, 1 of the 9 chainplate bolts on the starboard side has compressed the backing plate and a bit of the wood around it, creating a dip that is maybe 1/8″ deep from flush. Again, no sign of water anywhere and the wood feels solid.
My question is could this be the result of someone being over zealous when tightening one of the bolts or would you see this as a bigger issue with the integrity of the bulkhead?
Here is a link that shows the starboard backing plate. The plate is long and there is a shelf in the middle, hence the two pictures. I have circled the problem bolt in red. Hard to see the exact compression but you can at least see the state of the bulkhead
https://connorgabbott.smugmug.com/Chainplate/
Thank you so much in advance for any opinions!
Hi Connor,
Very hard to tell. I agree that the chain plates do look good for a boat that age. That said, the expert that I have already talked to about chain plates says that they should all come out of the boat for inspection on a boat that old. His point is that stainless steel corrodes fastest in places that are covered and damp, and therefore a visual inspection that does not include the area of the chain plates that penetrate the deck is pretty useless. More coming in a later chapter.
Point being that if you take his recommendation you will be able to really get to grips with what caused this crushing.
Thanks for the quick reply John
Understood on SS corrosion happening in the spots that are covered. If I was to buy this boat the plate would for sure come off. Look forward to reading the article you have coming down the pipe.
The compression on this specific backing plate is so localized around that one bolt that to my untrained eye it almost looks like it could be over-torquing of that one bolt. I thought if there was ingress and rot I would see the whole backing plate, or maybe just the top section, would be compressed into the bulkhead. Not just a 2″ indent around 1 bolt. Is this just my wishful thinking because I really like the boat?
In your experience, when there is water ingress into the bulkheads, would you see localized compression around only one bolt?
Thanks
Connor
Hi Connor,
Great to hear you will take the plates out for inspection. My rigger contact is exasperated by the number of owners that ignore his advice on this step.
On your case, I’m guessing that you are right that it’s a local problem around that bolt. Usually, if there is rot you will see areas of discolouration of the wood around the problem.
Thanks so much for insight John. When I first started reading your page I thought the idea of a $100K offshore boat was a fictional dream but with this boat I have found I think it could actually be a real possibility. Love your site, keep up the great work!
Hi Connor,
Thanks very much for the kind words. This series is really hard, tons of work and huge ambiguity to try and unravel, so encouragement is doubly valued.
The more I read this site, the more I’m concerned I’m never going to buy a boat in the first place (I currently just rent/borrow boats as part of a yacht club). There are indeed not a lot of boats that fit this criteria.
I look around my area (pacific north west) and see a whole lot of catalinas and beneteaus, and wonder if what seems to be working for a lot of other people in my area wouldn’t also work for me, despite them not meeting all these criteria.
Hi Todd,
You are absolutely right that many people have a great time in boats like the ones you mention. A lot of this is about whether or not you want to go offshore. That’s very much what this chapter is about: buying an offshore capable boat. If you want to cruise coastal then things get way easier and one of the brands you mention may work fine.
That said, it’s as well to be aware that when buying a boat with liners and a glued in keel matrix like some of the Beneteaus, we are taking more risk because of the difficulty of assessing the boat’s actual condition and the difficulty of fixing it if something is wrong.
Another option might be an older fundamentally solid boat like Matt Marsh selected: https://www.morganscloud.com/2020/08/14/us30000-starter-cruiser-part1-how-we-shopped-for-our-first-cruising-sailboat/
We also have a refit series with some suggestions for older but solid boats, including a couple of Beneteaus here: https://www.morganscloud.com/category/refits/an-offshore-boat-for-us100k/
And one on planning a refit: https://www.morganscloud.com/category/refits/budgeting-a-refit/