Hi John
Thanks a lot for your answer!
We will ask Jean-François André if he can change his design . I know that he as already made such a boat without twin rudders for this size . I even wonder if he was the inventor of the daggerboards : in 1979, he designed the Damien IV for Gérard Janichon with one rudder and a twin daggerboards. So, it is probably still possible.
A few years ago, we have had a bad experience In Glengariff ( South West Eire ) as we have hit a rock with the rudder (Ovni 43) and broke the hydraulic pomp( not the fuse) . I dived to put a rope between the propeller protection and the rudder to make it useable . We have crossed the Manche Chanel like that. A little nerve-wracking!
So you understand why rudder technic is so important for us!
Best regards!
Françoise et Jean-Michel.
I once bent and jammed a rudder in my PDQ cat. I was ripping along at 10 knots through brown post spring flood waters on the Chesapeake Bay and hit a submerged log. The keel pushed the log down, after which it popped up in front of the rudder. No hull damamge; the shaft bend just a small fraction of an inch until it hit the hull and jammed.
Two things. First, having a keel in front of the rudder is not for certain. Second, having two rudders, completely the cruise was simple, even though I was alone. I steadied the boat by reducing sail and lowering a low-drag drogue. I then cleaned out the aft locker, crawled in with two wrenches, and disconnected the dysfunctional rudder. I finished the cruise with one rudder. If the rudder had holed the hull, the shaft and aft portion of the hull is bulkheaded nearly to deck level.
But yes, in ice country I would want something in front of the rudder and bulkheads fore and aft. I’ve sailed in thin ice with spotty 10-inch flows and didn’t like it. That’s scary stuff.
Sure, having a keel protecting the rudder is not for sure, nothing is. That said, experience has shown it’s a huge amount safer than having two rudders sticking out either side on a monohull where they are very vulnerable to not just ice, but also rocks. The other thing is that obviously cats must have two rudders, but to me that does not apply to monos where the reason to have two rudders is simply that the hull was made too wide aft. That width makes sense on planing boat like a Pogo or IMOC 60 but is, in my view, simply wrong on a displacement cruising boat: https://www.morganscloud.com/2014/04/04/five-ways-that-bad-boats-happen-part-1/
I agreed completely. I would think those exposed rudders would get whacked frequently. Good fun on a lake scow, not so much on a cruising boat. I was just sharing an experience.
Planing designs on a cruising boat make no sense for the same reason that cruising catamarans are not appreciably faster than monos; both only go fast if you are pushing harder than you probably safely can over long periods.
It’s not immediately obvious from the drawing but this alloy centreboarder has twin rudders. It also has twin motors driving props through mini keels in front of each rudder.
Enough protection do you think?
Maybe, but then again that’s lot of complication that I can’t really see a good reason for when measured against a Boreal. The other issue is that looks like a daggerboard, which I really don’t like since a strong impact can cause all kinds of damage. To me, if we are going to go cruising in a lifting appendage boat it should have a centreboard which kicks up when it hits something, not a dagger board.
I agree about the complication. Also suspect the motor keels might add drag. You’re right, it is a dagger board and I share your concern about damage potential. Also, the board looks like a very high profile section for a cruising boat, optimised for higher than cruising speeds I’d have thought, and taking a while to start gripping after each tack perhaps.
Neil McCubbin
May 28, 2023 3:41 pm
I agree that twiin rudders are vulnerable. Racers take the chance, in the interest of hydrodynamic performance. Cruisers are better off with a larger margin of safety,
Philippe Harle, who designed virtually the Garcia boats, and MANY others, until he died in the early 1990’s, told me that he preferred the spade rudder (no skeg) on our Passoa and the other works voyaging boats because if it is hit, the worst is a bent or broken rudder, with no leak in the hull.
The structure of our hull at the rudder supporting tube that Harle designed is massively strong, and I am pretty sure would resist the force necessary to break off our 100mm diameter rudder stock, without causing a leak..
The design of the single rudder Garcias, and Boreals, puts the rudder square behind the very solid fin, which must surely reduce chance of rudder colision.
On the Passoas and similar Garcia boats, the rudder is slightly shallower than the fin, and the fin underhangs the prop. So far, in 40,000+ miles, we have never hit the rudder or caught a line in the prop
Philip Aston
May 31, 2023 11:19 am
I have a Boréal 47. Here’s another bonus for the dagger boards… A while back a fellow owner suffered an Orca attack off Portugal. The boards were stoved right in, both at about 45°. But the rudder and steering was fine. He reckoned Orcas are not accurate at hitting a target and the boards acted as good sacrificial protection.
A year later, I was entering the Med as he was leaving, so I asked whether he’d leave the boards down again. “Not sure” he answered, since the boards did need replacing and the rudder is very well built. We did see a pair off Cap St Vincent, I kept the boards up (but the Watt&Sea came out of the water very quickly!). Fortunately they swam by, a couple of boat lengths off.
As John says, losing the boards does not affect a Boréal’s seaworthiness. They are most useful off the wind in a seaway, making the helm lighter for the autopilot. Similarly, the centreboard is only really important when hard on the wind, although I’m learning how to use it to tune the centre of lateral resistance, and hence the helm balance.
We are in the “decision time” between Garcia and Boreal. We visited Garcia yesterday and they explained that their twin rudder have a foam part at the top that would be sacrificial in order not to break the hull if anything big happened and then you could still sail away by disconnecting the dysfunctional rudder. What do you think of this solution?
In my view all of these “fixes” for twin rudders are simply there because twin rudders are a very bad idea on a cruising boat in the first place. Nothing changes the basic fact that the Boreal rudder is protected by a massively strong keel box and the Garcias have there rudders sticking out where any piece of floating debris, ice, or a rock can damage them.
The other problem is that once one rudder is gone, the Garcia will be very difficult to steer any time the missing rudder is on the leeward side.
And finally, Eric Klem, who is a very smart engineer has repeatedly told us that sacrificial weak points are very hard to do so they both break when you want them too, and don’t, when you don’t.
Hi John
Thanks a lot for your answer!
We will ask Jean-François André if he can change his design . I know that he as already made such a boat without twin rudders for this size . I even wonder if he was the inventor of the daggerboards : in 1979, he designed the Damien IV for Gérard Janichon with one rudder and a twin daggerboards. So, it is probably still possible.
A few years ago, we have had a bad experience In Glengariff ( South West Eire ) as we have hit a rock with the rudder (Ovni 43) and broke the hydraulic pomp( not the fuse) . I dived to put a rope between the propeller protection and the rudder to make it useable . We have crossed the Manche Chanel like that. A little nerve-wracking!
So you understand why rudder technic is so important for us!
Best regards!
Françoise et Jean-Michel.
This is interesting.
I once bent and jammed a rudder in my PDQ cat. I was ripping along at 10 knots through brown post spring flood waters on the Chesapeake Bay and hit a submerged log. The keel pushed the log down, after which it popped up in front of the rudder. No hull damamge; the shaft bend just a small fraction of an inch until it hit the hull and jammed.
Two things. First, having a keel in front of the rudder is not for certain. Second, having two rudders, completely the cruise was simple, even though I was alone. I steadied the boat by reducing sail and lowering a low-drag drogue. I then cleaned out the aft locker, crawled in with two wrenches, and disconnected the dysfunctional rudder. I finished the cruise with one rudder. If the rudder had holed the hull, the shaft and aft portion of the hull is bulkheaded nearly to deck level.
But yes, in ice country I would want something in front of the rudder and bulkheads fore and aft. I’ve sailed in thin ice with spotty 10-inch flows and didn’t like it. That’s scary stuff.
Hi Drew,
Sure, having a keel protecting the rudder is not for sure, nothing is. That said, experience has shown it’s a huge amount safer than having two rudders sticking out either side on a monohull where they are very vulnerable to not just ice, but also rocks. The other thing is that obviously cats must have two rudders, but to me that does not apply to monos where the reason to have two rudders is simply that the hull was made too wide aft. That width makes sense on planing boat like a Pogo or IMOC 60 but is, in my view, simply wrong on a displacement cruising boat: https://www.morganscloud.com/2014/04/04/five-ways-that-bad-boats-happen-part-1/
I agreed completely. I would think those exposed rudders would get whacked frequently. Good fun on a lake scow, not so much on a cruising boat. I was just sharing an experience.
Planing designs on a cruising boat make no sense for the same reason that cruising catamarans are not appreciably faster than monos; both only go fast if you are pushing harder than you probably safely can over long periods.
It’s not immediately obvious from the drawing but this alloy centreboarder has twin rudders. It also has twin motors driving props through mini keels in front of each rudder.
Enough protection do you think?
https://meta-yachts.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/%C2%A9-JPB-52-AMENAGEMENTS-1024×766.jpg
Hi P D,
Maybe, but then again that’s lot of complication that I can’t really see a good reason for when measured against a Boreal. The other issue is that looks like a daggerboard, which I really don’t like since a strong impact can cause all kinds of damage. To me, if we are going to go cruising in a lifting appendage boat it should have a centreboard which kicks up when it hits something, not a dagger board.
I agree about the complication. Also suspect the motor keels might add drag. You’re right, it is a dagger board and I share your concern about damage potential. Also, the board looks like a very high profile section for a cruising boat, optimised for higher than cruising speeds I’d have thought, and taking a while to start gripping after each tack perhaps.
I agree that twiin rudders are vulnerable. Racers take the chance, in the interest of hydrodynamic performance. Cruisers are better off with a larger margin of safety,
Philippe Harle, who designed virtually the Garcia boats, and MANY others, until he died in the early 1990’s, told me that he preferred the spade rudder (no skeg) on our Passoa and the other works voyaging boats because if it is hit, the worst is a bent or broken rudder, with no leak in the hull.
The structure of our hull at the rudder supporting tube that Harle designed is massively strong, and I am pretty sure would resist the force necessary to break off our 100mm diameter rudder stock, without causing a leak..
The design of the single rudder Garcias, and Boreals, puts the rudder square behind the very solid fin, which must surely reduce chance of rudder colision.
On the Passoas and similar Garcia boats, the rudder is slightly shallower than the fin, and the fin underhangs the prop. So far, in 40,000+ miles, we have never hit the rudder or caught a line in the prop
I have a Boréal 47. Here’s another bonus for the dagger boards… A while back a fellow owner suffered an Orca attack off Portugal. The boards were stoved right in, both at about 45°. But the rudder and steering was fine. He reckoned Orcas are not accurate at hitting a target and the boards acted as good sacrificial protection.
A year later, I was entering the Med as he was leaving, so I asked whether he’d leave the boards down again. “Not sure” he answered, since the boards did need replacing and the rudder is very well built. We did see a pair off Cap St Vincent, I kept the boards up (but the Watt&Sea came out of the water very quickly!). Fortunately they swam by, a couple of boat lengths off.
As John says, losing the boards does not affect a Boréal’s seaworthiness. They are most useful off the wind in a seaway, making the helm lighter for the autopilot. Similarly, the centreboard is only really important when hard on the wind, although I’m learning how to use it to tune the centre of lateral resistance, and hence the helm balance.
Hi Philip,
Thanks for the fill on that. When I’m looking at a lifting appendage boat, the Boreals are always the bench mark I start from.
Scary stuff about the Orca, but glad you got through OK.
We are in the “decision time” between Garcia and Boreal. We visited Garcia yesterday and they explained that their twin rudder have a foam part at the top that would be sacrificial in order not to break the hull if anything big happened and then you could still sail away by disconnecting the dysfunctional rudder. What do you think of this solution?
Hi Philippe,
In my view all of these “fixes” for twin rudders are simply there because twin rudders are a very bad idea on a cruising boat in the first place. Nothing changes the basic fact that the Boreal rudder is protected by a massively strong keel box and the Garcias have there rudders sticking out where any piece of floating debris, ice, or a rock can damage them.
The other problem is that once one rudder is gone, the Garcia will be very difficult to steer any time the missing rudder is on the leeward side.
Also twin rudders make docking difficult and a working bow thruster mandatory, which is also a bad idea: https://www.morganscloud.com/2017/11/16/qa-coming-alongside-docking-with-twin-rudders/
And finally, Eric Klem, who is a very smart engineer has repeatedly told us that sacrificial weak points are very hard to do so they both break when you want them too, and don’t, when you don’t.
You may also be interested in my analysis of the two boats: https://www.morganscloud.com/category/boat-design-selection/boreal/garcia-exploration-45-compared-to-the-boreal-44-47/