Picking up where we left off in Part I, it was time to ask Boréal Yachts' Managing Director Jean-Francois Eeman about their plans for the future.
Boréal Yachts—Looking To The Future
The Offshore Voyaging Reference Site
Picking up where we left off in Part I, it was time to ask Boréal Yachts' Managing Director Jean-Francois Eeman about their plans for the future.
I have a question for JF.. Has any Boreal been built with a carbon fiber rig ? If not is it something on the “drawing boards” ? Would it be entertained as an option ?
I have had the opportunity to have a close look at a Boreal 55 that is currently berthed in the same marina as mine. She is setup with a fractional rig & swept spreaders… Is this a more performance oriented rig option or was it a specific customer request ?
Regards
Patrick
Hi Patrick
I’d guess that the boat you have seen belongs to famous Swiss skipper Dominique Wavre (many Vendee Globes etc.) who wanted a more performance oriented rig – this was a special request, but I’m sure would be possible again, although having sailed a 55 and a 52 with the standard rig I think the standard rig is more than adequate!
Best wishes
Colin
It’s nice to read about Boreal — love the boats and would love one myself — but frankly this article reads embarrassingly like an infomercial.
Hi Stefan
that’s a pity – but it is simply an interview that asks the sort of questions that I believe our readers would wish to ask. I hope it gives an idea of what we can expect from Boreal over the coming years, much of which is new.
Best wishes
Colin
Dear Colin,
I must say I agree with Stefan’s comment that your review sounds a bit like an informercial and to be honest the posting of the second article quickly after the first one could be seen by some as a way to divert focus from the interesting debate on the danger caused by Refleks heaters on board Boreal as well as many other high latitude cruising boats.
More to the point it would have been interesting to understand if the new Boreal design adresses some of the issues of the first generation of 44/47 , namely the lack of headroom ( I am 1.85 and the only place I could stand upright was under the hatches), the constricted interior inerrant to the space allocated to the pilot house ( yes the pilothouse is beautiful) , the lack of rudder surface ( so that the boat could be beached I guess) evidenced by the addition of 2 rear daggerboards, the inability to reef safely and single handedly from the cockpit to mention a few. These comments are based on my own observation as well as discussion with some owners.
Do not get me wrong however, Boreal is a beautiful boat, in fact I almost bought one. But I feel some constructive comments on shortcomings would go a long way in re-inforcing the credibility of the boat, the yards and of this website. Perfection in a boat sounds a bit too good to be true.
Best regards
Chris
Hi Chris,
First off, our publishing schedule here at AAC is, and has been for several years, a new article every five days. We don’t postpone publishing because of active comment threads. That would make no sense for two reasons: first only a minority of our members comment, or even show much interest in the comments, so it would be unfair to make the majority wait. And second, there is no reason that a new article should “divert interest” since anyone interested in a comment thread can subscribe to that and follow it for years after publication date.
By the way, ironically, we were actually a day late on posting part 2 (6 days) due to a UNIX operating system update to our server that went pear shaped.
Also, I think that perhaps what you are looking for is a review type article. This is not that, but rather an interview with the Managing Director at Boreal to see what’s on his mind. Obviously said MD is going to be positive about the boat, that’s his job.
If you want a more review type piece I wrote one after my visit to Boreal some years ago. And yes I had criticisms. That said, not many, simply because the Boreal is, at least in my opinion, the best available boat for more aggressive offshore cruising available today—yup, I’m a total fan boy of the boat.
Anyway, here’s a link to the post:https://www.morganscloud.com/2015/02/02/john-and-phyllis-visit-boreal/
With all due respect it’s not much of an interview either. These are softball questions — precisely why I called this an infomercial. Or, alternatively, fanzine writing.
Seriously, it’s an interesting topic and these are interesting boats, but you could have at least made a slight effort to appear objective!
Hi Stefan.
I’m not part of the AAC team, so it’s not my task to defend, but I have to say I can’t really understand what you think is missing in this type of interview? Should Colin have added negatives he didn’t find? Should he have talked about other brands? Should he have been rude and unpleasant when he’s actually someone’s guest? Should he have prepared “difficult” surprising questions in a tone a la Fox News? Is that “objective”? I think not!
Why isn’t it enough to read it as what it is, an interview? When you ask for “objective”, is that because you think there are hidden agendas at this site? That they’re secretly receiving money to brainwash us? Personally, I find it rather easy to see the level of honesty around here, so I see zero point in putting in fake negativity just as an alibi.
I notice that most media are in the entertainment business. That certainly includes most news and sailing media too. Most news media is full of obviously fake criticism to boost the sensation factor. The less honest the journalist is, the more aggression he uses to hide his worthlessness. Maybe we get accustomed to that kind of shit. I hope that type of fake “objectivity” never enters these pages.
As mentioned, why not just read what’s there, as is? If I thought that was absolutely everything worth saying about Boreal, I’d be far less smart than I pretend I am. If I didn’t trust the writer and this site, I wouldn’t be here.
Hi Chris,
I’d respectfully suggest the existence of daggerboards is not evidence of insufficient rudder surface, one has very little to do if anything with the other…have you ever sailed a lifting centerboard boat with dagger boards, made proper use of and experienced for yourself both the disadvantages and advantages of this configuration on various points of sail including in heavy winds and seas (even just considering the sailing aspects and leaving the beaching option aside even though from a user perspective it is an essential point well worth other sacrifices, to the extent that there are any)? Being more pocket-size than you, I can’t pretend to experience headroom issues as you do, though some other owners may (and in fact some have had modifications done on their request, see Boreal 47 Sila for example, so it has definitely cropped up), so I’ll keep silent and just listen to others on that subject…however, after 36K single-handed miles on a Boreal 47, should anyone else share your concerns, I’d like to vouch for the fact that reefing (and any other boat handling for that matter), while not from the cockpit indeed (which in the case of reefing is by design, it’s a feature not a bug), can be done perfectly safely solo on this boat.
Hi Chris, Matt
there have been a number of approaches to the question of rudder systems for these centreboarders designed to take the ground, all of which have their good and bad points and I have written about them here at AAC before, including a whole article on them https://www.morganscloud.com/2010/10/17/rudder-options-2/.
Having sailed on Boreal’s in a wide variety of conditions in my experience their approach is as good (if not better) than most. Matt’s far greater experience is telling in this regard as he has really tested his boat.
And as far as reefing is concerned, although we opted for single line reefing in the cockpit on our Ovni, I’m not sure I’d do it again, even after I have worked hard to get it sorted out as I’ve also written about here on AAC. Reefing at the mast is simpler and quicker in my view.
Best wishes
Colin
Hi Chris,
Thank you for your comment. Every suggestion which helps improving our boats or the perception of them is very welcome.
If you feel like we have pretended the Boréal is perfect, I apologize because we should not have. The Boréal is not perfect, no boat is…
I indeed remember meeting you and Lynn. I do remember our exchanges and our discussions. But I cannot remember having sailed together on a Boréal. First hand experience would have easily demonstrate you our rudder system works very well. In fact, if it would not, we would have been out of the market since a while.
There is a rational (hydrodynamic) explanation of why the system works so well, there is the feedback from our owners (thank you Matt !!!) and the there is the proven track record of Boréals taking their crew to the most wild places on earth (5 years in a row different owners have taken their Boréal to Antararctica, and 5 Boréals have sailed to or along South Georgia…)
Our system has advantgaes other systems have not. I should have copy/paste your initial – now removed – comments on your site regarding your system. It was very to the point, you saying, not me…
(As you can I have keep following your project since the beginning, even it was not on a Boréal… 🙂 🙂 🙂 )
I hear your remark on the headroom and indeed when we will redesign the 44/47 (on the 52/55/55 Open Cockpit it is not an issue) we will increase it.
But, if you do allow me :
1) Headroom has a “price”; higher headroom, heigher freeboard, higher windage… Another compromise. Creating headroom but not forgetting smaller people who should not feel in a cave…
2) There is a difference between (your) preception (when you visited us) and reality. If you are 185 cm, you can stand everywhere in the saloon, even under the slightly lower part under the doghouse. (I’m sure you understand I needed to be factual on this.)
Most of our owners reef at the mast : simple, quick, reliable… but indeed out of the cockpit. In this configuration you can use the anchor winch to hoist the main
For each of our models we have a solution with a reefing system out of the cockpit….
I wish Lynn and you a lot of nice sailing days on your boat.
Best regards,
JF
Dear Jean-Francois, John, Matt and Colin,
Thank you for taking the time to reply to my comments on the shortcomings of the Boreal 44/47. You all have very good points and if I dare say a vested interest in challenging what I say. I can only repeat that my comments are based on my own observation ( I do not think I dreamt the issue of headroom Jean Francois ? ) as well as discussion with some Boreal owners particularly on the issue of rudder size.
On that topic I know of three solutions to resolve the conundrum of rudder size with the ability to beach the boat: The dagger boards (the solution adopted by Boreal) ,twin rudders and kick up /lift rudder. They all work but all have draw back even though proponent of each system will go to great length to demonstrate their system is the best. In truth they are all a compromise. My personal favorite however, which I had on my previous boat, an Ovni 395, and that you find on many antarctica charter yachts is the lift /kick up rudder. There must be other solutions I have not heard of.
On the topic of cockpit reefing versus traditional mast reefing I would like to make two comments: First cockpit reefing can work very smoothly if incoporated early on in the boat deck design, second going to the mast to take or shake reefs when sailing single handed is not something I perceive as the safest practice. On our boat nobody goes forward without somebody else being in the cockpit, but I am well aware that many sailors are doing just that including myself on some occasions usually to fiddle with the spinnaker pole.
To close off this comment I must say that I do like the Boreal design very much even if I prefer my own Garcia Exploration 45, but I get quite annoyed when people appears to be blindsided by one design or another for various reasons. But I guess it’s business.
Cheers
Chris
Hi Chris & Lynn,
I just want to say, aside from our disagreement re. Boreals’ rudder surface and mast vs. cockpit reefing configurations etc, congrats on your northwards Chilean canals cruise (I went the other way, not sure at all I’d be up for single-handing in the opposite, much more difficult direction), thank you for sharing the experience on your website, and whatever ‘vested interest’ I may have in defending my own (hopefully reasonably well-informed) Boreal choices, I am definitely open to and interested in your logic re. structural boat and peripheral equipment preferences, so thanks again and maybe see you in a few months since you seem to be heading back South…
Hi Matt, Thank you for your gracious comments. Sailing up the Patagonian channels was easy compared to some of the trip you have done. It would be great to catch up somewhere in the South next season and share some tips. Cheers
Chris
Ps: I look up your videos on the net and I like your dog!
Hi Colin
I wish you would stop writing these sort of articles. I shall never be able to afford one of these WONDERFUL yachts. Parts I and II have produced the sort of unrequited love pangs that I thought were long behind me.
?
Seriously, it is great to see that Boreal are enjoying such success, but I would have welcomed the question: “is there any plan to offer a smaller Boreal, or a bare boat model which could be fit out by a competent owner?”. I expect that the answer from J-F would be “no” because of the risk to their reputation of badly finished hoats.
Could these yachts become the exception to the rule that yachts depreciate?
Yours in sorrow, and I did enjoy both articles
Bill
Hi Bill,
I was left with exactly the same thought on a smaller less expensive boat. Sadly I think you are probably right: not likely. As you can see from the above, Boreal are more thinking about larger boats, which I think reflects a fundamental of boat building: it’s much easier to make a profit and stay in business by building bigger more expensive boats than smaller less expensive ones.
I have had exactly the same conversation with Steve Dashew on several occasions when I have tried to convince him to do a smaller less expensive motorboat.
All of that said, I still believe that there is a viable business building a lower cost boat, but the key is mass production GRP and no options…the Adventure 40.
Wow… if I didn’t already have one being built I would certainly be considering the open cockpit version! Beautiful…
Hi John and Colin
The car industry has that same problem, big and expensive cars are far more profitable than small ones, even with the higher volumes of the smaller cars. But I can’t let the idea go. Using the skills, construction techniques, and machines developed during the production of the bigger yachts, it should be possible to produce an entry-level expedition yacht at a profit. Most of the ideas behind the A40 could be used, but with Boreal DNA . Absolute standard, no options, stripped out except for essentials, but with easy owner upgrading, aluminium with lifting keel, doghouse and unpainted. The A40 price point would probably not be achievable, but maybe under $250k. The A40 obviously had great potential, but the lack of commercial nous displayed by Eric and his new partner have killed the design. The Boreal design is different, but the philosophy much the same. Could J-F not be persuaded by the list of people who had registered their interest in the A40 that this is a market worth pursuing?
Regards
Bill
Hi Bill,
I guess I would have to disagree that “the philosophy is much the same”. Boreal are a semi-custom low volume by-hand builder. A few boats a year, each of which takes close to a year to build.
The A40, to be successful, must have no customization and be high volume mass production. An entirely different task. In fact I think that if Boreal tried to do both at once they would almost certainly do neither well.
Hi Colin.
As you might have noticed, I’m a multihull fanatic with a long history of speed addiction. Probably I cant be cured by any type medication, but your writing and my accumulative image of Boreal makes me positively love these guys and their boats. I still prefer cats, but I wish these guys made one, that I couldn’t afford….. (damn).
Some seem to dislike that you don’t criticize them, or are more balanced. With this context, I actually think that would be clumsy and awkward, at best. I think the trouble is that in media with less credibility than ACC, articles looking a bit like this are actually paid commercials. Suspicion of such corruption is smart in most media, but suspecting it here would be just silly.
Now and earlier you and John have indicated or defined yourselves as “fanboys”. So what does that indicate about Boreal? You have both actually looked properly into this yard and are rather competent on long distance sailing boats, to put it mildly. You might know more about them than most on the planet, except for the employees themselves. So, if you’re still “fanboys”, that must be an extremely strong indication that this is really good stuff.
Boreal must have its challenges and flaws, as we all do. They’re human too, but with morale and ambition this sky high, they are at a level where my willingness to forgive details is massive.
I totally agree that I’d love to see models at the smaller end of the scale. There are some absolute rules connected to the size of the human body that mean there are non negotiable troubles with going too big (or too small). However, there are also some absolute rules when selling products. It’s way better to sell fewer expensive items than more of cheaper items, even if the production cost is the same percentage, which it rarely is. Also, a smaller and cheaper Boreal is the most important competitor to selling a more expensive Boreal…
When this “market” is approaching saturation, and the sales volume goes lower than the production capacity, it will be wise to look at smaller boats. My hunch is that this market development won’t happen very soon. The two Jean-Francois seem to be idealists, but fighting the laws of the market is risky. Either way: Good luck Boreal!
Hi Stein
both John and I are Boreal fans, as we like their commitment to building boats that are ‘fit for purpose’. There are others we like, too, and in my case I am very happy with our Ovni, which has looked after us so well over the years. They are not perfect boats and I agree that such a boat could never exist as we all have a different definition of perfection. You may be surprised to learn that I really like cats – some of them, anyway, and would happily sail one of the older Outremers, for example. But perfect? Maybe not quite.
It does seem that there is a gap in the market for a really solid, go anywhere 40 footer, but given the poor track record of smaller vehicles and profitability (read the history of the original Mini car, for example) I think it will be a brave firm that takes that task on.
Best wishes
Colin
Hi John,
I just watched a dramatic Formula 1 race in Baku. In my wildest dreams driving one of those cars was never attainable, even when I was in my crazy 20’s and dabbled in the racing game.
As much as we might admire them, a half million or multi million dollar Borreal is equally unobtainable for those of us who are not in the upper 95++ percentile of wealth.
Perhaps Attainable Adventure Cruising should change its name or focus upon boats that are actually obtainable! And such boats do exist! I know of two retractable keel 38 footers– one steel and one aluminum— from well known designers that are on the market in the 50k range. Even with a 50k refit budget (which is at the far upper end of probability), 100k is still a lot less than the price of a new Unobtainable 47 or the Adventure 40 concept than never escaped from Autocad.
Next week I’m traveling to the PNW to look at an Attainable 43 that would take me to the Fairweather Range of Alaska— a place high on my wish list for years. I’ve never been a fan of this particular design, but everything is a compromise. Still I can’t ignore the fact that they’ve been through the NW Passage and circumnavigated Antarctica, survived groundings in remote locations, and done numerous global circumnavigations. After I put new rigging wire in the Norsemans, throw away the CQR’s and buy a big Spade and have Carol Hasse build a bulletproof mainsail I’ll still have less than 60k in the project. If it comes together I’ll report upon what the real world discloses!
Ha, Richard
you must have read my mind – I’m working on a post along those lines as I write this!
Best of luck with the viewing.
Colin
Hi Colin,
Here are a couple of photos of one of the Poor Man’s Boreal /Adventure 40 ‘s on my list. It might be much higher on the list if it weren’t a half globe away from my Alaskan dream.
&
ps; it has a Garcia style hatch closure — unlike the semi-secure drop boards we see on every other boat below true expedition yachts. All in all it’s a lot more on the “adventure” side of the spectrum than the Adventure 40 design. Especially if ice or uncharted Guna Yula reefs were on the program.
Tell me you wouldn’t be interested at 50k if you didn’t already own a very similar boat!
I can’t Google “Garcia style hatch closure”: do you have an example of this? I’m curious. My fabrication is a sort of “Swiss door” type similar to that on Beth Leonard and Evans Starzinger’s boat.
Hi Marc
“Garcia style hatch” Conventional dodged hatch mounted at about 45 degrees to the deck. Just open it and step onto the ladder.
Hi Richard
a nice looking boat and at a great price!
Best wishes
Colin
Hi Richard,
I hear you. In fact Colin and I had a long Skype chat on just that subject only a couple of weeks ago.
That said, as you know, I have significant reservations about encouraging people without your experience and skills to take on old cheap second hand boats. And after all, you have been talking of buying one for several years but have yet to pull the trigger, and that makes me think that there are traps in that approach that you have been able to recognize and avoid but others might not.
So, given that, I have also been thinking lately about what we might be able to do to resurrect the Adventure 40 project now that it’s become obvious that Kip and Erik are not going anywhere with it.
The trick with the discussion of refitting an older boat is that some people can do it succesfully and some can’t. Not only does it take lots of skill and time, some people are good personal project managers and can prioritize and complete while others will never be able to finish the boat. Similarly, some people know what to look for in a boat while others will prioritize incorrectly and get something which is not nearly as suitable. It certainly can be done but I think that the most important thing is who is doing it, it can be amazing the difference that the person makes.
It is too bad that Eric and Kip aren’t doing anything with the A40. Hopefully someone comes out with something along those lines.
Eric
Hi Eric.
I think you are spot on the core issue. It might be that different people have different talents from birth, but i think it’s more about which experiences life has given us and which types of activity gives us joy. We develop abilities that shape our opportunities. The person who can successfully finish a refit with a good total cost, is normally also the person who is able to spot which projects are worth looking at and which are not.
I get the feeling that the people that get the most exited about buying a very cheap boat to “fix it up a bit” and sail far, are quite often those who don’t see the big picture of a boat as a way more complex beast than the shell with a stick and some ropes many see. Some even see potential where they should see the big warning sign promising failure and possibly a ruined life.
It’s fairly similar to the problem with building a boat from scratch. Looking at the superficial numbers, it might seem like one can save a load of money. Looking at the real full picture, after the boat has been sold, it’s normally far cheaper to buy a production boat brand new. When asked, I normally answer: “If what you long for is building something, building a boat is nice. If you want a boat, buy one!” 😀
Hi Stein,
Great advice, particularly the last line!
Hi Eric,
That’s a very good point. The tragic thing is that there often seems to be an inverse correlation between having the skills and mind set to do a refit well and willingness to take one on. Not surprising when I think about it since I think the best way to learn to do a refit is to have done one. So Poor Stupid Bob could probably do a pretty good one now (having done not one, but two) but has exactly zero interest in doing so.
Where some see tragedy, others see opportunity. There’s no real place, short of being hired as a teenaged gopher/apprentice in a boat yard, to learn these sort of skills a refit requires. I knew going into it that it would be a slog, but I was motivated by the sense that, once done, I could fix most anything aboard (having installed it!). I suppose it’s analogous to buying a boat from the factory to getting someone pregnant, versus being a parent. Anyone can do the first part.
That said, I agree it’s not for everyone. We saw it as a necessary part of proposed long-term voyaging. My wife worked three years in a chandlery and now has an enormous (and often surprisingly in-depth) knowledge of product attributes and functions…often from taking note of the trial-and-error methods of other refitters. You can obtain the skills over time. The correct and productive mindset is harder to cultivate.
Well, I snickered at “Unobtainable 47”! I think the simple reality is that the market (at least if you are under 60) is very favourable to acquire a “good enough, get you home” boat for adventure cruising, with the caveat that the buyer possesses sufficient vigour and seamanship to run the vessel in question. I’ve seen enviable boats, like 1980s Brewers and even some Perry designs, going for 50% or less of what they would have 10 years ago, because the older baby boomers are swallowing the anchor and their offspring don’t care to sail or haven’t the readies to do so. It’s a fact that there’s a wide range of slightly slow, slightly less dry and slightly more confined go-anywhere boats on the market…if the buyers who want to go anywhere may be found.
Hi Marc,
I agree, and like the two options you mention. That said, we do new cruisers no favours by painting an unrealistically rosy picture of what the likely outcome of buying a 25 year old boat is: years of toil and spending. After all, if memory serves you have been refitting your boat for how long? I’m guessing eight years at least. And as I remember you were originally planning to go cruising some years ago, but have not gone yet?
I say that not to criticize you, but to remind everyone that expectations and reality can be two different things and we at AAC would be irresponsible if we were not pointing out the pitfalls. Bottom line, for those that are not wealthy, going offshore cruising is hard to do and expensive. And that’s just the boat, then there are health issues like RDE is dealing with and the challenge of staying solvent while cruising. Not to speak of funding ones old age after returning.
I would love to wave a magic wand and change all of that, but I can’t. And I won’t sugar coat hard stuff just to appear as a “site for the people” or some such, even though so doing would probably get us more members.
No, I agree entirely, John. Two points, however: I’m still in my 50s and we had the option of going prior to my son starting high school or finishing high school, and we chose the latter (my wife is turning just 44 in June). We also purposely waited in the overheated Toronto housing market to cash out, which we did last month. So that wait gave us, if we are careful, not only the wherewithal to secure a property elsewhere for (less than Toronto) rental income prior to leaving for a five-year cruise, but to keep going until health, time or enthusiasm dictates otherwise. That is, definitionally, freedom.
But the main reason for the delay was because we weren’t good enough sailors to safely do the cruising…at least in our own mind. Part of this is the actual seamanship skill set, but another part is that I’ve had to get to the intermediate level in four trades (mechanic, machinest, welder/fabricator and electrician) to effectively maintain our boat. I did not have the advantage of growing up in either a work or a leisure environment of sailing or as a liveaboard kid or even someone who took shop classes: I started from not even driving a car at age 38. So everything, as usual, is relative. Turns out I’m moderately handy.
So I’ve done these things in under 20 years. We are moving to an apartment in July and will leave in June, 2019. From my point of view, while I could have done things faster, I suppose, I’m not sure with my other calls on my time if that would have been such a good idea. I also suspect that my story is not particularly unique and that a great deal of the pitfalls you warn against are acknowledged. Sugar-coating is for babies in need of pacification: the sea is rather more salty than sweet.
Hi Richard,
Something I neglected to mention in my first answer: it’s only a couple of years since we ran a four part series on refitting older boats, so it’s not really fair to suggest we only write about expensive boats. The series starts with this chapter: https://www.morganscloud.com/2016/04/27/refit1-a-trans-atlantic-boat-for-less-than-us100000/
And then there was this piece: https://www.morganscloud.com/2016/03/10/cruising-on-less-than-15000year-including-the-boat-what-it-takes/
Hi John,
I’d like to think that living with cancer for 16 years in a country where the medical system is designed to bankrupt anyone who comes into contact with it is more responsible for my not pulling the trigger on my own Attainable Adventure sailing project than lack of suitable candidates.
Hi Richard,
Very sorry to hear that. I was not aware of your health issues.
Everybody has health issues. It’s called aging! When I can no longer master’s ski race on FIS level courses I may have the right to complain!
Kudos to people like Andy & Mia on Isjborn who are smart enough to go adventure sailing while still young!
Hi Richard
I’m sorry to hear that, too, but I know about ageing, having suffered (yet again) from that curse this winter. Slowly, getting better, but you never get back to the way you were before the injury, do you?
And I totally agree with you comments on Andy & Mia – it’s a pity that fewer young people are unable to make that leap in todays world.
Best wishes
Colin
I would suggest that “unable” include “unaware” and/or “unwilling”. Decent boats have never been less expensive than today, and there are plenty of “gofundme” young crew with professional-grade media savvy who seem to be cruising for free in return for regular video blogging. But the entire concept of cruising is not particularly well-known among younger people, I would say, nor have decades of “junior sailing” programs inculcated a love of sailing as a lifestyle choice.
Combined with that is the increased clannishness (in my observation) of today’s under-40s, which cannot be enjoyed at sea, which is, save for emergency comms, a potentially isolating activity, at least on passage. That’s the part I like best, but then I’m not under 40 and have that kind of data plan.
I enjoyed reading the interview; it’s fascinating to get a glimpse “behind the curtain” at the new concepts Boréal is working on in pursuit of new markets.
Before criticizing the market segments the company is trying to develop, we should consider that Boréal probably has more competition in the expedition/luxury aluminum boat business than they did several years ago. Also, their operation is larger, so the stakes of maintaining the business are higher (more workers and their families, more capital invested). Finding a steady, growing market in which to apply their unique expertise is a necessity.
Regarding the open cockpit concept for the 55, I’m intrigued but also a bit confused as I’ve haven’t encountered such a winch layout before. Can anyone comment on the probable duties of the various winches?
Hi Scott
I’m sure you’re right – it makes sense to expand the range to attract new buyers. The old logic that ‘if you’re not going forward, you’re going backwards’ is still valid.
I haven’t seen the large scale plans for the open cockpit version yet (I will in a couple of weeks, I hope) but I’d imagine that the central winch handles either/and/or the genoa sheets or the mainsheet aided by clutches on either side to free up the winch.
Years ago I sailed on a Dehler 39 CWS which had a similar set-up. Like all ‘new’ ideas, it took some getting used to, but after the initial challenges I liked it. Not perfect, but I couldn’t find any major drawbacks with it, either.
Once I know more I’ll update this comment.
Best wishes
Colin
Hi Colin,
By my interpretation of the picture, I can’t see how genoa sheets would get to the central winch without interfering with the cockpit big time. And the thought of putting headsail sheets in a clutch strikes me as a good recipe for a disaster. It is however a big winch.
I look forward to your clarifying this down the line.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Hi Dick
well, there you go, a completely different explantion form the man who would know.
For what it’s worth, many years ago I used to sometimes skipper a big (72′) sail trainer with one massive winch centrally mounted in the cockpit to handle the yankee sheets – even then it was seriously hard work. And it was one of only two winches on the entire, ketch rigged boat…..
Best wishes
Colin
Hi Scott,
Thank you for your nice comment…
I think I can comment/explain de winch system.
First of all we do not pretend to invent anything. We look at what works on other boats and we also notice what is incoherent on some/many others.
Reminder : The version of the Boréal 55 with an open cockpit you see is “just” an alternative version meeting other requests. The Boréal 52 and 55 will continue existing as such.
On the winches :
The central winch is a big electric winch with on both sides a series of clutches where halyard, reefing lines coming back to the cockpit. You can stand behind the winch and see what you when operating it. On each side you have “boxes” to store/hang all lines.
The two most central winches are meant for the genua sheet. When tacking one person can ease the sheet on one side and haul it in on the other side. Again, you stand behind the winch, you see what you do and you are in an ideal working position. There is of course enough space for two person, each operating his winch.
The two other more external winches are for the main. You use them either when you are sitting on the coaming steering (You have 3 steering positions : upright with a adjustable floor, or sitting on the curved seats, or sitting on the coaming) , either from behind.
The adopted solution allows to separate the cockpit in two areas : sitting versus working area.
Adam, I hope you can visualize what I trie to explain. If not, tell me…
Thanks Jean-Francois,
That makes sense.
So much for my puzzle skills. Dick
Aha! Now it all makes sense. Thank you all for the answers and guesses, which even if not correct were better than what I had imagined.
Jean-François, the arrangement you described seems very workable for both a singlehander or a helmsman plus a trimmer or two. I particularly like how the genoa winches are closer to the centerline, accessible on three sides, and slightly canted inboard against the angle of heel. That would all seem to make the job during a tack an easily managed operation, whether alone or with help.
The division of working and seating areas of the cockpit seems well thought out. As I try to “decode” more of the functional accommodations built into the design, I’m now guessing that the genoa winch stands also double as housing for the tops of the daggerboards. Which, if true, seems like a brilliant integration. Or, are the daggerboards located farther aft, and not needing to come up so high?
If you’ll forgive me one last question, with the open cockpit version seeming to have more potential to hold seawater than the standard version, how do you provide for more drainage? Perhaps venting out the gap between the transom and the raised swim platform?
Best regards,
Scott
Atlanta, GA
Hi Scott,
The daggerboards are indeed housed below the seats behind the steering wheel…
The open cockpit version has indeed more potential to hold seawater than the standard version and we add therefor additional drainage pipes. The final configuration of this is not finalized yet…
Best regards,
JF
Jean Francois,
The open cockpit design looks intriguing but I wonder if you give up the massive lazarette?
hi Prentiss,
Yes we give partially up the massive lazarette… It is still big, very big but not as big as in the intial concept.
You cannot have it all, can you ?
JF
Hi Scott,
I like puzzles, so I will take a shot.
Central winch is for the centerboard. Outside winches are for the headsail sheets, although they look too small for this purpose. Inboard of these winches and easy access to each helm is a double-ended mainsail sheet, probable to a multi purchase sheet system as those winches are not very large also.
I look forward to someone who actually knows weighing in.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Great article about great boats. There are very few sources to read about Boréal and other boats like that so really appreciate AAC filling in the gap. Also would be very exciting to see motor concept from Boréal. Can’t wait!
Hi Andrey,
I too am really interested to see what Boreal come up with in the way of a motor boat.
Hi Andrey,
Hi John,
We didn’t expect that one line in an article on AAC would raise such an enthusiasm…
Thank you to all for that.
We’ll publish a first design when we feel we are able to present something which we believe is coherent. That is not the case yet…
Hi Colin and JF. . .I really appreciate your thoughtful answers and responsiveness to all of the questions posed. The Open Cockpit 55 is very intriguing to me. I had been wondering when/if Boréal would tailor the 52/55 in this way. When are the plans going to be “locked” so to speak? When will Hull 1 be produced? Is the hull identical (or nearly so) to the Boréal 55? Thanks in advance.
Hi John,
We have started building the first Boréal 55 with an Open Cockpit a few weeks ago. We will flip the hull – which is identical to the hull of a Boréal 55 – in less than one month.
We will launch her Mid-July next year and she will fly a Canadian flag (atlhough she might stay for a while in Europe)
The concept is “locked” up.
We have made-up a mock-up of the steering posts to check the ergonomy in the different positions…
We are happy to answer you all other questions you might have…
Jean-Francois,
Thank you for the reply. I am sure this is a really sexy, fun project and demonstrates you are not biased against those of us who may desire sailing the tropics as much or more than the high latitudes. 😉 So that I avoid hijacking the forum with what may be mundane questions for some pertaining to the OC 55, please let me know a good means of contacting you directly outside the forum. Best, John
Hi John,
Jean-François (Delvoye) and/or myself read in person every single mail which is adresses to us through our website…
Go to our site http://www.boreal-yachts.com, click on the icon contact, fill the form and I’ll receive your message…
Illok forward to read you.
JF