My Rival 41C, the centre cockpit version of this marque, is somewhat similar to the Norseman 447. More pinched at the stern, she has the aft cabin and heads compartment. The engine access is similar, a panel to the side, in the passageway to the aft cabin, and also from the cockpit locker.
I agree with your points regarding storage on deck with this age / style of older boat. As a centre cockpit my, cockpit locker is shallow, but wide. It may be possible, to deepen down to the side of the engine at some future point. The lazaret is similarly restricted across the stern, but does take 6 fenders and mooring lines; I moved the gas bottles outside to increase room. My companionway steps are not as steep but still require you to go down backwards. One modification I made was to the chart table and turned it 90 degrees from forward facing to side facing. It was a complete new build chart table but this opened up the galley / chart table area and created a much more useful work top, than the old chart table design (I still use charts) but the utility has been improved for non navigation activities. The turn of the hull and narrower beam made sitting at the chart table awkward, and as such I never did sit there, and navigated from the side anyway.
Currently I have the navigators berth down the side of the passage to the aft cabin, and other models have this converted to add much better storage. We use this space to store items, rather than sleep, but that is not an efficient use of the space.
My wife and I sail her and she is a great size, for two up or 4 up. A very seaworthy design, can hold sail area if needed, but can be sailed just as fast with less heal, when reefed. The cockpit on mine looks larger and I do sail with friends, up to 6, but have had 8 and we all fit in, but folks normally end up sitting on the aft cabin coach roof for the extra space.
My keel is an encapsulated fin, a skeg for the rudder and this winter the rudder will be removed for inspection which will involve splitting.
Compared to the Norseman 447, the Rival 41C has much finer lines, single spreader rig. Mine has the inner forestay with staysail. Engine is the larger of the two models offered, the Perkins 4236, which I think will survive Armagedden as it has been faultless under my 15 years of ownership.
Regarding spend, indeed, the cost of the boat, plus the refit costs (part professional, part DIY), minus the resale costs, equals a more modern boat. There is no doubt about that, and any other analysis is delusional. However, I had the cash, the time.
I chose the boat because I used to sail on one extensively, in a sail training environment, and she handled many strong wind events easily had a kind motion and was easy to maintain, plus my wife like the fact that the boat did not rock when she stepped on board, compared to other boats we looked at. Currently my Rival is a forever boat, but there will come a time when I will sell her on and down size for a more modern boat, but that is not yet.
Thanks for a great analysis of another good boat. The differences between the two are interesting and worth thinking about too. Comparing the two is a useful way to understand some of the basic design philosophy differences between North American and British boats of the time.
That said, I would be a tad sceptical about the 200 miles a day claim! But then brokers will be…brokers.
Robert Settle
July 21, 2025 1:57 pm
I am owner of Norseman 447 aft cockpit -hull #9.
Ben and I have traded a few tips over the years. He is a master of both power and sail and an extensive background on tall ships.
I’m the guy who fabbed and installed a second deck rod forward at the main bulkhead. It let’s me tune the rig quite stiff for offshore work.
The aft cockpit version gives up the dreamy aft berth and shower. It gains in having a low helm position extreme aft that is dry with a view of the sails and rig. The lazarettes are massive and big enough for crew to sleep inside. The entire aft end of the boat is a storage cavern The aft cockpit version has tall curved seatbacks with long seats for outdoor sleeping. Quite good engine access with all four sides removable around engine.
The boat does not care much about nasty conditions. The Norseman is a “stiff” “dry” boat heeling to about 15 degrees max with 12,000 lbs of lead. She is a freight train and quite fast. And she logs the miles with an easy, comfortable sea motion. The Forespar mast is a high quality extrusion and quite strong that enjoys adding pre-bend. She’s rigged with a hydraulic backstay.
You are correct in that any boat this age needs systems to be addressed. In fact every single system on my boat has been replaced. Over $250K invested over the years in refit. Were I to purchase and fit out a comparable modern boat I’d be over one $million. That being said there are few modern boats designed and built for crossing oceans. It appears boats are now designed to sell to buyers at boat shows.
Thanks for the fill on the the aft cockpit version, very useful.
As to a newer boat, I agree on a million and up for a brand new boat, but, to be fair, a relatively new Outbound 46 can be had for around half a million and most will not need a lot more spent on them to be ocean capable.
Marie Eve Mercier
July 21, 2025 5:35 pm
Wow! Great article. I like it when you talk about old boats, probably because we own one: 1977 Columbia 56, designed by William H Tripp Jr.
You are right that finding a very well refitted one (not just flashy tech and interior features) is a challenge. You want one that was truly cared for with an owner that did not frown at the tough on the wallet mandatory replacements that may have proven necessary as time went by: rigging, sails, furling gear, for example.
Our Columbia 56 was just that. But those kind of nuggets are few and far in between.
Then, at the same time, I can say if we did not have 4 kids and would have been much younger at the moment of shopping, the time in the yard refitting a cheaper one with great bones could have been something we truly enjoyed doing instead of spending the big bucks from the get go.
Torsten Hansen
July 22, 2025 8:53 pm
I’m delighted to encounter Robert and Ben here on AAC. My wife and I are deep into the refit of a center cockpit N447, hull #34, which we plan to launch next spring. It has been a massive and expensive project and you are absolutely spot on in your analysis of the economics. Do not take it on unless you really want a project boat. I did and I continue to enjoy every bit of the process, call me nuts but that how it is.
Along the way, we have made many changes, too many to list but your suggestion of converting the forward head to a locker is one of them. From the beginning we made a decision to optimize the boat for two and the v-berth will primarily be a workspace. On the rigging, I am bringing the reefing from the cockpit back to the mast where it belongs.
My Rival 41C, the centre cockpit version of this marque, is somewhat similar to the Norseman 447. More pinched at the stern, she has the aft cabin and heads compartment. The engine access is similar, a panel to the side, in the passageway to the aft cabin, and also from the cockpit locker.
I agree with your points regarding storage on deck with this age / style of older boat. As a centre cockpit my, cockpit locker is shallow, but wide. It may be possible, to deepen down to the side of the engine at some future point. The lazaret is similarly restricted across the stern, but does take 6 fenders and mooring lines; I moved the gas bottles outside to increase room. My companionway steps are not as steep but still require you to go down backwards. One modification I made was to the chart table and turned it 90 degrees from forward facing to side facing. It was a complete new build chart table but this opened up the galley / chart table area and created a much more useful work top, than the old chart table design (I still use charts) but the utility has been improved for non navigation activities. The turn of the hull and narrower beam made sitting at the chart table awkward, and as such I never did sit there, and navigated from the side anyway.
Currently I have the navigators berth down the side of the passage to the aft cabin, and other models have this converted to add much better storage. We use this space to store items, rather than sleep, but that is not an efficient use of the space.
My wife and I sail her and she is a great size, for two up or 4 up. A very seaworthy design, can hold sail area if needed, but can be sailed just as fast with less heal, when reefed. The cockpit on mine looks larger and I do sail with friends, up to 6, but have had 8 and we all fit in, but folks normally end up sitting on the aft cabin coach roof for the extra space.
My keel is an encapsulated fin, a skeg for the rudder and this winter the rudder will be removed for inspection which will involve splitting.
Compared to the Norseman 447, the Rival 41C has much finer lines, single spreader rig. Mine has the inner forestay with staysail. Engine is the larger of the two models offered, the Perkins 4236, which I think will survive Armagedden as it has been faultless under my 15 years of ownership.
Regarding spend, indeed, the cost of the boat, plus the refit costs (part professional, part DIY), minus the resale costs, equals a more modern boat. There is no doubt about that, and any other analysis is delusional. However, I had the cash, the time.
I chose the boat because I used to sail on one extensively, in a sail training environment, and she handled many strong wind events easily had a kind motion and was easy to maintain, plus my wife like the fact that the boat did not rock when she stepped on board, compared to other boats we looked at. Currently my Rival is a forever boat, but there will come a time when I will sell her on and down size for a more modern boat, but that is not yet.
Hi Alastair,
Thanks for a great analysis of another good boat. The differences between the two are interesting and worth thinking about too. Comparing the two is a useful way to understand some of the basic design philosophy differences between North American and British boats of the time.
For others interested in learning more about the Rival I found this listing with lots of good pics: https://www.huysmanyacht.com/en/yachtbroker/boats-for-sale/rival-41/
That said, I would be a tad sceptical about the 200 miles a day claim! But then brokers will be…brokers.
I am owner of Norseman 447 aft cockpit -hull #9.
Ben and I have traded a few tips over the years. He is a master of both power and sail and an extensive background on tall ships.
I’m the guy who fabbed and installed a second deck rod forward at the main bulkhead. It let’s me tune the rig quite stiff for offshore work.
The aft cockpit version gives up the dreamy aft berth and shower. It gains in having a low helm position extreme aft that is dry with a view of the sails and rig. The lazarettes are massive and big enough for crew to sleep inside. The entire aft end of the boat is a storage cavern The aft cockpit version has tall curved seatbacks with long seats for outdoor sleeping. Quite good engine access with all four sides removable around engine.
The boat does not care much about nasty conditions. The Norseman is a “stiff” “dry” boat heeling to about 15 degrees max with 12,000 lbs of lead. She is a freight train and quite fast. And she logs the miles with an easy, comfortable sea motion. The Forespar mast is a high quality extrusion and quite strong that enjoys adding pre-bend. She’s rigged with a hydraulic backstay.
You are correct in that any boat this age needs systems to be addressed. In fact every single system on my boat has been replaced. Over $250K invested over the years in refit. Were I to purchase and fit out a comparable modern boat I’d be over one $million. That being said there are few modern boats designed and built for crossing oceans. It appears boats are now designed to sell to buyers at boat shows.
Hi Robert,
Thanks for the fill on the the aft cockpit version, very useful.
As to a newer boat, I agree on a million and up for a brand new boat, but, to be fair, a relatively new Outbound 46 can be had for around half a million and most will not need a lot more spent on them to be ocean capable.
Wow! Great article. I like it when you talk about old boats, probably because we own one: 1977 Columbia 56, designed by William H Tripp Jr.
You are right that finding a very well refitted one (not just flashy tech and interior features) is a challenge. You want one that was truly cared for with an owner that did not frown at the tough on the wallet mandatory replacements that may have proven necessary as time went by: rigging, sails, furling gear, for example.
Our Columbia 56 was just that. But those kind of nuggets are few and far in between.
Then, at the same time, I can say if we did not have 4 kids and would have been much younger at the moment of shopping, the time in the yard refitting a cheaper one with great bones could have been something we truly enjoyed doing instead of spending the big bucks from the get go.
I’m delighted to encounter Robert and Ben here on AAC. My wife and I are deep into the refit of a center cockpit N447, hull #34, which we plan to launch next spring. It has been a massive and expensive project and you are absolutely spot on in your analysis of the economics. Do not take it on unless you really want a project boat. I did and I continue to enjoy every bit of the process, call me nuts but that how it is.
Along the way, we have made many changes, too many to list but your suggestion of converting the forward head to a locker is one of them. From the beginning we made a decision to optimize the boat for two and the v-berth will primarily be a workspace. On the rigging, I am bringing the reefing from the cockpit back to the mast where it belongs.
Hi Torsten,
Sounds like you have a really good handle on this project and went into it eyes wide open. Good on you!