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+1 for radial cut and Hydranet. It’s quite a while since I had a set of sails made in the fabric, so the following might no longer be relevant, but we were told to break in the sails over the first 1000 miles. To overpress the boat with too much sail up would stretch the sails (like Dacron) and they would not regain their shape. so we followed that advice.
Other than that, the sails were great on our boat and I have found them really long lasting on the many Boreal’s that I have sailed with Elvstrom Hydranet sails.
Hi Colin,
Thanks for the confirmation on Hydranet. On the break in idea, I have to say that I’m a little sceptical that any break in period would make a difference on a radial Hydranet sail. I Googled around and didn’t find anything on break in at all with modern fabrics, although I could maybe see a reason for it on a cross cut sail. Of course we both remember how important that was with cotton.
Also interesting that Arne, further up the thread, was told the exact opposite: break it in with hard sailing. If I get a moment I will ask DP if there is anything in this. If it’s true (either way) it would make a useful AAC tip.
Hmmm, our yankee was radial cut, and our main was cross cut….
Does anyone have experience with Contender Fibercon? Seems similar to Hydranet but less expensive.
Hi John,
Agree completely about HydraNet Radial cloth.
The following is long, as it focuses on the one challenge that HN cloth presents a wide ranging cruiser: repair. There are also comments from sailmakers and others about how few repairs HN cloth seems to ever need.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Hydra-Net Radial practice repair
Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy 12 Nov. 2017
I have been very happy with the sails made of Hydra-Net Radial sailcloth, with the one caveat that I worried about the day I would need to do a repair as the material is incredibly slippery (leach mainsail streamers even needed to be sewed on). To date, all my on-board sail repairs (previous sails) have been accomplished solely by adhesives or made far easier to sew by sticky-back sail cloth. I have kept my eyes open for possibilities for Hydra-Net repair, and recently came across DR SAILS. Surprisingly, perhaps pleasingly, sail-makers I talked to had little or no experience with HN repairs and I came across no reports of field experience repairs from cruisers.
The manufacturer of Hydra-Net, Dimension-Polyant, Inc., and the well-known, well-thought-of marine equipment designer/manufacturer, Harken, recommend DR SAILS and both provided me with sample single use packets (D-P also provided sample cloth).
The following how I did my repair test: please comeback with questions/comments/thoughts.
Repair test with DR SAILS:
1. Promises (of the manufacturer)/comments (by me)
a. No mixing/ (it is 2 part so, of course, there is mixing. They do make a small amount (single use pouches) less messy to mix than some other epoxies.
b. 8 minute working life: (the single use packages say, in contradiction, “handling time 4 minutes”) might be a little less if you massage the single use pouches to establish a good mix too longer than necessary. I found it hard to judge when I had a good mix. For small areas the handling time seemed short but adequate. For larger areas, larger quantities of epoxy, I would want extra hands to spread the glue)
c. 22 minute tack free cure: this felt roughly accurate: Unclear whether this “tack free cure” means that this is “fully cured”.
d. Remains flexible: affirmed.
e. Works wet/underwater: untested (but likely true and a benefit if repair is under adverse conditions underway)
f. 36 month shelf life: not very long for an item kept on board for emergency sail repair. (likely longer is my experience with epoxies)
g. Epoxy works for wide range of products, similar to the promises of other epoxy manufacturers. In my estimation, it works just like other epoxies I have worked with, the difference being that this epoxy remains flexible, which makes it better adapted to sail repair. Note, other epoxy manufacturers promise flexibility, but none I know have been tested for sail repair, especially with Hydra-Net.
2. Did 4 practice repairs
a. I used the directions/comments that came with the samples and common-sense experience with other epoxies. There are instructional tutorials on the internet (at drsails.com), but I figured that one might not have internet access when doing an emergency repair. That said, looking at the videos and taking notes for on-board access would probably be wise.
b. Used a brand-new sample of Hydra-Net, HN343, sent to me by maker
c. I cut the cloth into squares with the area epoxied equaling 2×2 inch and with tabs for handling (and for pulling on the repair when cured).
d. Two repairs I put pressure on with a medium weight book and two were just massaged with occasional finger pressure. This reflect my experience that working with sails on a field repair is always hard to manage and awkward to administer pressure etc.
3. Practice repair
a. Used single use DR SAILS pouch that mixes internally after massaging the 2 parts through a membrane which breaks allowing mixing.
b. Prepared the sail cloth by light sanding and then cleaning with acetone (DR SAILS sells a cleaner that comes as pre-packed wipes.)
c. Mixing entailed massaging the pouches till a connecting membrane breaks allowing the 2 parts to mix. They are of (slightly) different colors that allow some idea of when properly mixed.
d. There are different amounts one can buy and for them, I suspect, different methods of mixing and judging a 50/50 mix.
e. A squeegee with a saw-blade edge and a flat edge for spreading the epoxy was provided.
4. I found:
a. The epoxy was quite sticky and a challenge to spread from the get- go: not impossible, just a challenge.
b. I could adjust the position of the two sail pieces after 7 minutes with moderate pressure. I did not have the sense that this minor re-positioning interfered with the strength of the repair and I only adjusted one repair.
c. It was still very slightly tacky after 20 minutes.
d. After 25 minutes, the repair resisted moderate pressure by a fairly strong adult male (and may have tolerated full strength pulling pressure). After 1 hour, the repair resisted full strength efforts to pull these 2×2 inch pieces apart.
e. I found no difference between samples cured under the book’s pressure and the ones massaged together with just finger pressure.
f. After 3 hours, with effort I could peel back a corner, but the peeling apart became too difficult when I was pulling apart just less than 1 inch of epoxied cloth.
g. After a few hours the repair was still flexible (stiffer for sure, but this is 2 pieces of cloth glued together so it is bound to be less flexible) and looked and felt fully cured. I suspect the flexibility will remain the case.
h. I expected that any repair with this epoxy would still require stitching because of the incredible slipperiness of this material. Now I am not so sure. With a high load repair (seam or luff) sewing as back up might make sense, but with a low load repair (spreader chafe) I would likely just epoxy a new piece of cloth over the chafe with adequate overlap.
i. One single use pouch was able to cover the 4, 2×2 inch square, repairs adequately with a very little epoxy remaining.
Hi all,
I sent my notes on HydraNet repair to friends who had sails in this material and to the sailmaker who made my sails and received interesting enough responses that I thought I would share.
The sailmaker wrote:
“Interesting little experiment, as you say, I expect in really high load areas you’ll need some sewing
You might not believe this & it does sound staggering given the number of HydraNet sails we have supplied, but as I type this reply I cannot think of us having to repair a HydraNet sail!!”
And a friend with 7 years with HydraNet sails wrote that he believed that HN was a well-kept secret to ensure that sailmakers had enough work. He went on to report that in his 7 years (he is an active cruiser with lots of miles under his keel) he has only repaired some stitching that had chafed/UVed away.
If this longevity/resistance to damage is accurate, one might argue that the higher initial cost is eminently worth it in the longer run.
My best Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Hi Dick,
Interesting on repairs, but that does bring to mind that in all my years with Hydra Net I have only done two repairs: about 4′ feet of seam that let go and a clew ring that pulled out from UV deterioration of the webbing. Being an ex sailmaker I just sewed both up by hand.
Anyway, my experience supports your friend’s idea of why HN is a well kept secret!
Hi Jesse,
As far as I can see (some confusion on some pages) Fibercon is a completely different product in that it is intended for inexpensive (initially) cross cut sails and it has no high modulus fibres. It also relies on a plastic filler to reduce bias stretch which I really don’t like since when that breaks dowm, which it will, the shape goes to hell very quickly. In short, it’s less expensive for a lot of very good reasons.
Sources: https://www.contendersailcloth.com/eu/wovens-cross-cut/fibercon-by-contender-sailcloth/
https://www.contendersailcloth.com/australasia/wovens-cross-cut/fibercon-all-purpose-ap/
https://www.contendersailcloth.com/usa/fibercon-competition/fibercon-competition-polykote/
https://www.contendersailcloth.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/CS_Wovens_Fibercon_Pro_Low_Aspect_BV_2024.pdf
There is different flavor of Fibercon…”Pro Hybrid”… that’s positioned as a competitor to Hydranet. No idea of its relative merit though. https://www.contendersailcloth.com/usa/wovens-radial-cut/fibercon-pro-hybrid/
Hi Jeff,
Yes, that looks more like Hydranet. One thing I did notice was a coating, which I would want to know more about before selecting the fabric. Thanks for the fill.
Thoughts on North 3Di ?
Hi James
How much money do you have? Very expensive indeed, particularly if you go with the durable taffeta covered version. The other issue is that if they get the shape wrong on a custom sail there is pretty much no fixing it, and repairs are difficult too. So if I was really serious about racing my J/109 at a very high level I would go 3Di, but otherwise not.
I’m not sure that I agree with your “very expensive” assessment for 3Di, at least as far as the material itself goes. It looks to me that the price may have at least as much to do with buying from a big name loft as from the basic cost of the material. For example, I have seen quotes for mainsails for the same boat where the sail built by North from 3Di Ocean 700 and the one by Doyle from HydraNet 483 were less than 20% different in price. To me, that makes the 3Di option significantly more expensive than HydraNet, but not “very expensive” in comparison. These quotes were from a handful of years ago, and I won’t try to claim that they are precisely accurate to current pricing.
Of course, relative pricing is not the only issue you raised, and I’ll reserve comment on the rest without agreeing or disagreeing.
Hi Mark,
Hum, Obviously when comparing costs there are a lot of variables, but I had the relative costs from a North loft manager against their equivalent of HydraNet in a sewn sail and the difference was big. That said, there are different flavours of 3Di so this is defiantly hard to accurately get a handle on.
For example to get the full benefit from 3di and have it last as I understand it the recommendation is 3D1 Endurance which has the costs of carbon (if you go 780). Then there is 3Di Ocean which you can get in Aramid Spectra, or a blend of spectra and dacron, or all dacron. So yes, I’m sure the all Dacron probably competes on price. And if the others do to, cool, but 20% is real money.
I would also not use arimids in a cruising sail. Unlike Spectra all aramids have fundamental bending fatigue issues, although recent ones are better in this regard.
Bottom line, 3Di covers a multitude of different products.
Anyway, while I think high end 3Di is a breakthrough for high end racing, I still, on balance, like going with a non-proprietary cloth so I’m not nailed to a given sailmaker. Also 3Di is relatively new so I think that HydraNet is more of a proven fabric for longevity. And most important, It’s one I have a long track record with, which really drives my recommendations. Otherwise I’m just spouting what I’m told by salesmen.
As to modification and repair difficulty, I’m pretty sure about that, the point being that 3Di sails don’t have seams and that makes these things tricky. For example if you have a shape issue how would you fix it without seems? Totaly limited to what you can do with luff curve.
Anyway, each to their own, and there is no question that 3Di is a huge advance and super cool.
Hi Mark,
One other thought on this. When did you get this comparative quote? The reason I ask is that Doyle was bought by North Technology, and one of the things I have heard rumours about is that the plan is to concentrate all production for the group at North’s facilities. If that’s true, I can see a directive from on high to price any sails in non-North fabrics high. And even if this was before the merger, large sailmakers often have either their own fabrics (Doyle Stratus) or bulk buying agreements with suppliers that mean they price other fabrics high. Might be interesting to get a couple of quotes from independent lofts to explore this.
Seems like Doyle favours Contender, when not using Stratus: https://www.doyleboston.com/products/cruising/materials.html
Point being there are a lot of wheels within wheels here.
As I mentioned previously, this was from a few years ago — in other words, from soon after 3Di Ocean 700 went GA. I have also seen reports of Ocean 330 and 370 quotes that were even closer in price to HydraNet, so I stand by my previous assessment that the basic material costs are likely not hugely different. 3Di needn’t fit only into Grand Prix budgets where spending twice as much to get a couple of percent gain is seen as reasonable. I don’t mean to imply that 3Di is a better choice than HydraNet, but only that I don’t pre-emptively rule it out on presumed price alone.
Yes, the Doyle acquisition may well have changed price structures, and I agree that looking at independent lofts when shopping for HydraNet sails is a good idea.
Hi Mark,
Sorry, missed that it was a few years ago, and yes, good point on the many cost points of 3Di.
I agree. 3DI, even the North cruising version is very expensive, but they are great sails that keep their shape over time. After our first set of early Marathon 3DI sails started to de-laminate after 15-16 years, they still had decent shape, with the draft still close to the original location.
We went with normal crosscut for the second set.
Probably should have gotten radial hydra, but other overdue boat projects loomed.
Hi Frederick,
I agree, no question that 3DI is a big breakthrough, although I do wonder and worry about the ability to modify the shape, without seams, if they get it wrong.
I bought new sails about 3 years ago (main and genoa), and I was told that for such small sails (31-33 m2) there was no real benefit over the cloth they recommended. I can’t remember the name of the cloth I went with right now, but it’s a durable Dacron made for radial cut. I talked to 4 sail makers and they all pretty much said the same, that there would be close to no benefit on longevity, durability or shape for a sub 40 m2 sail with Hydra Net. And the price for Hydra Net was substantially higher. I ended up skipping the Hydra Net, thinking I could buy two Dacron sets for the same price, plus it was my first ever sail set and sail boat, so I would probably want something slightly different in a few years anyway. The sails still look and feel pretty much as new after 3 seasons and around 4000 miles. But I don’t know how much the size of the sail matters.
I too, was told that Hydra Net needed to be “broken in” by a bit of hard sailing, as there was an initial stretch in the fabric that it had to be pulled into.
Arne
Hi Arne,
I guess, as with the radial to cross cut debate, that depends on how much performance, and more to the point, long term performance means to each of us since I can’t really see how boat size makes that much difference other than on a smaller boat the sailmaker could use a heavier less technical sail cloth to get lower stretch, whereas on a bigger boat so doing would make the sail a problem to handle.
For example Dick uses Hydranet on his Valiant 40 and I have all high tech sails on my J/109 and would not dream of buying a Dacron sail for the boat. But I know a couple who had a J/109 and were perfectly happy cruising with cross cut Dacron sails. It’s all about us, I think, rather than any sweeping assumptions like boat size in relation to these things.
I’m also surprised that you say you could get two sets in Dacron for the cost of one set in Hydranet given that both were radial and labour is such a large part of the cost of a sail.
Anyway, I’m thinking I should have a chat with my sailmaker friend in Maine and get a comparative quote and also ask him about this break in idea, particularly since it seems you and Colin where told pretty much the exact opposite about breaking in Hydranet. Should be interesting.
Hi All,
I need to clarify and emphasize something here: As I say above, I am in no way saying that Hydra Net is the best possible fabric. What I am saying is that I, and other voyagers I respect have used it for decades with great results and no problems.
So sure, we can debate other fabrics, and that’s fine, but do keep in mind that pretty much all of that discussion is based on manufacturer and sailmaker claims.
Or to put it another way, never confuse marketing and facts. There are a whole bunch of reasons that a given sailmaker may recommend a given cloth, and a lot of those reasons are more to do with corporate relationships, than the best material for a given owner.
Given that, I tend to rely on experience every time. This is also another reason I recommend always at least talking to an independent sailmaker when making a choice.
Hi John,
In addition to your caveats about the suggested sail-cloth that a loft recommends:
It is my take, and I am requesting a reality check here, that walk-ins to sail lofts often are met by young salesmen (more often than saleswomen) who are more racers than sailors. By that, I mean they have had assigned duties on a race boat and often do not experience other sailing considerations or the overall responsibilities that a skipper must weave together. And, they are often, predominately cowboys: aggressive and performance dominated (like trainers in a gym where they can’t get it through their heads that not everybody wants to bulk-up and count abs, we older folk want stamina, flexibility, and longevity.)
I have always dealt with smaller sail lofts and only dealt with the principles in the loft and developed a relationship where they know well my cruising habits. In questions coming to me from other sailors, it is my take that salesmen in the bigger lofts are often suggesting/flogging bigger asyms than I think reasonable for couples on cruising boats and discourage the use of whisker poles for ex.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Hi Dick,
So true. It used to be when you walked into a sail loft you talked to a sailmaker, now days in all likelihood you are talking to a salemaker. Worse still, in many cases said salesperson, will, because they have a racing background assume that you, as a cruiser, no matter how experience, are an idiot and so are not listening very well to your requirements.
Those small lofts are disappearing, sadly. My city’s last remaining independent sailmaker passed away last year. The folks who bought his shop are doing the best they can to serve the community’s repair and storage needs, but they aren’t able to design, cut, and stitch new ones from scratch.
Sailmaking is a trade that takes many years of apprenticeship to learn. And it’s not a regulated trade with a Red Seal apprenticeship and a licence; it’s all “caveat emptor.” And most of it has now been offshored; you’ll deal with a sales rep and a service/repair rep here, but the actual cutting and sewing is done somewhere in south or east Asia.
I am not sure how to attract bright young minds to the trade and convince them to make 30+ year careers of it. But I hope someone does.
Hi Matt,
You wrote:
I am not sure how to attract bright young minds to the trade and convince them to make 30+ year careers of it. But I hope someone does.
An issue with many trades where skilled labor needs to be better valued and nurtured. Dick
For two years I’ve been wanting to replace the 20 year old set of cross cut cut Dacron sails that came with my Tartan 372. The shape of the old sails is pretty bad at this point. I’ve done quite a bit of research on sails, sailmakers and fabric including reading all the AAC articles. On John’s recommendation I ordered a tri-radial main and jib in Hydra-net radial about eight weeks ago. The cost for the tri-radial set in Hydra-net radial was quoted at 43% more than a cross cut set in Dacron. I’m hopeful that improvements in shape and longevity will justify the added expense.
Hi Mark, John and all,
The expense of HydraNet comes up as a consideration.
I think a case can be made that, for the performance-oriented skipper (but not a fanatic or racer) who will keep their sails as long as shape is maintained, that HydraNet Radial sails are less expensive on a yearly basis than Dacron (and probably laminate, although my main complaint with laminate was cosmetic).
With Dacron sails, in my experience, I start to notice deteriorating sail shape as early as ~~3 years give or take: not really a big deal, but I am starting to feel a little itchy. At ~~4-6 years I am wanting new sails and trying to decide the tipping point between budget, sail performance, and personal tolerance for compromise: all while living with sailcloth that clearly has many years left to it. It is my take that most cruisers continue with sails longer than I could tolerate and pay the price with compromised performance, increased heeling, and decreasing reliability. That said, most still get to their destination and they clearly have more money in their cruising kitty.
And, I have had sails re-cut and tucks taken (no botox) and sometimes that has been worth doing, and sometimes not. All re-cuts were moderately costly (skilled labor is expensive and the job is mostly labor).
Random thoughts, My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Hi Dick,
Good random thoughts, though! Very well balanced.
Hi Mark,
I’m pretty sure you will be ecstatic the day you hoist those sails, particularly given you are coming from bagged out cross cut sails.
On the quote, that seems to support about a 20-25% uplift for Hydra-Net given that going from cross cut to radial also has an uplift. Anyway, I’m confident that your cost per mile will be lower than if you had gone crosscut Dacron, and the years of sailing faster at lower heal angles is a double bonus.
These past two articles on sail construction and material couldn’t be more timely for me.
I’m in the process of buying new sails for my new to me 47 footer for extended offshore cruising. I’m buying from Precision sails as I’ve had good service from them in the past and they run an attractive sale at year-end. I was originally looking at crosscut Dacron 500 Series Elite 10oz. but after reading this article am considering the tri-radial hydra-net. Below are the quotes I’ve received for my main and Genoa for reference. I’m still trying to decide if the additional cost is worth it for me but thought I’d share what I’ve found.
68 m2 Genoa
$4,542 Crosscut Dacron 500 Series Elite 10oz
$5,466 Tri-Radial Dacron 10oz.
$11,569 Tri-Radial Hydra-Net
42 m2 Main
$3,994 Crosscut Dacron 500 Series Elite 10oz
$5,101 Tri-Radial Dacron 10oz.
$7,500 Tri-Radial Hydra-Net
Hi Eric,
Thanks for the real world numbers, very useful. The uplift for Hydra-Net, particularly for the Genoa, seems high (over 100%), particularly in relation to the main uplift (47%), so maybe get at least one more quote, and/or ask Precision why the uplift is double on the genoa. Also check out Mark’s experience where radial HydraNet was only 43% more than cross cut Dacron.
One other thought for you. Ask what weight of Hydra-net they will be using. 10oz is heavy and at 47′ you are getting up into a boat size where cloth weight can matter.
Hi John,
Have you ever considered doing an article on sail repair? Apologies if I missed it but I tried searching and didn’t see anything. I am thinking of the type of repairs that would be relevant to long distance sailors who have reasonably good sails but might not have immediate access to a sailmaker. Things like what supplies to carry, how to use them, etc.
I was thinking this as I read the tip and then read the exchange you had with Dick where hydranet has given you almost no issues but I assume you were still prepared for issues. I have done a lot of repairs to dacron sails but never had any real training in it so they were not pretty and the few articles I have read seem to have been written by people who haven’t dealt with the reality of spray, a moving boat, darkness, etc. I was just thinking that your work as a sailmaker and sailing offshore would be the right combination of experience to make a good guide.
Eric
Hi Eric,
Interesting idea, but the problem is that, other than the couple I mentioned, I have never had to repair a sail when out cruising so I actually don’t have any real world experience. That said, of course I learned a lot about repairs when I was sailmaking, particularly since that was in Bermuda, one of the busiest way stops on the voyaging routes, but of course I had all the kit including industrial sewing machines and a loft to lay the sail out on, so maybe not that relevant. Anyway, let me think about it.
He Eric,
We could start with a sail repair kit: tools and material. I have met cruisers who do not even have a palm. Dick
I had Hydranet on my last boat. I priced it out on my new boat and the cost has gone through the roof. I chose a laminate instead.
Hi Gino,
Which laminate did you choose. Always interesting to know about alternatives.
We got new radial cut Hydranet sails in 2022. They sure take everything you give them. The sail slides/cars have be worn down after two ocean crossings, but the sails are stille amazing.
Hi Martin,
Great to hear, thanks.
To fill in some relatively recent pricing information, at least for UK purchasers, I ordered a 105% jib and a main with 5 full length battens in Hydranet Radial for a 47 foot mast head sloop in Autumn 2022. Jib was 49 sq m, main was 47 sq m from memory. I shopped around at the Southampton boatshow and got 3 quotes for Hydranet Radial, which came in betweeen GBP 17,500 and 19,500.The most expensive quote came from a loft where a young chap from my home yacht club was just starting his yacht industry career as an apprentice, so when they shifted a little on price I chose them as I felt there would be value in having a personal relationship with my sailmaker other than just one of customer/supplier.
For purposes of comparison, at the same boatshow I spoke to other sailmakers who quoted for sails to the same brief using alternative dacron-based fabrics. One UK based loft quoted GBP 11,500 and Rolly Tasker who are based in Thailand quoted GBP9,000 and claimed a life of about 70,000 miles. However I stuck to my guns and committed to Hydranet Radial having read such impressive things about it in my research.
The new sails were heavily personalised to my spec, such as having a really deep third reef reducing sail area to about 36%, which is seriously wonderful and comfortable when the wind gets up. I’ve used it far more than I expected.
When they were delivered they seriously transformed the yacht, with such a reduced angle of heel I wondered for a moment if they had transformed my boat into a catamaran. Enough so that my wife also noticed and commented most favourably, which was a relief after my blowing so much cash. Pointing is also significantly improved. They also helped us improve our placings in our club racing.
Having now had them for 2 seasons with a mix of local cruising and club racing, some of it in the UK winter, plus a 2000 mile delivery across Biscay to Spain, they are still crispy and show no signs of wear that are detectable to my eye.
I hope I am not transgressing any rules about plugging suppliers with the following, but to help any prospective purchasers identify potential lofts that will build sails using Hydranet Radial, the three from which I received quotes were One Sails, Ullman and Kemp.
Sail cloth is of course a personal choice and we all have to be conscious of budget, but this is one area where I believe that buying cheap means buying twice.
Mike
Hi Mike,
No worries on plugging a vendor who has done good work for you. In fact we encourage that, ditto outing vendors who don’t perform well.
And great to hear you have had such a great experience. I’m betting you will continue to be happy for many years to come and will, in the end, have spent less money than you would have with less expensive sails.
Also, great to have back up of the point I keep making about how good sails reduce heal angle.
I am currently buying a new staysail, and one quote I got was, for comparison:
Tri-radial Dacron: 2000 €
Laminate (CDX9 Contender): 2500 €
Hydra-Net (HNR343): 3700 €
Hank on. Sail area about 14 square meters.
I’m also curious if this is a sail that matters much what fabric? It is a sail I use a lot, but almost only in heavy weather 25+ knots of wind, and it’s pretty small and light anyway, and durability from abuse matters a lot, so maybe a heavy Dacron will be more suitable while giving similar performance and shape lifespan? Also, given the price is almost double, with a Dacron I could buy two for the same price, so I just need half the lifespan, and I’ll get a second sail in case I damage the first one while crawling over it trying to strike it during a storm…
Very interesting subject, and one that will come up again and again, and have a HUGE impact on the cruising budget!
My problem is, I value sail performance, but I just don’t have any way of knowing wether spending A LOT more is worth it or not. This is article and discussion is probably the best place to get any closer without blowing my entire budget.
Hi Arne,
When I bought Alchemy, a 40-foot cutter, it had a suit of Dacron sails. The mainsail and jib were replaced after a just a couple of years, but the staysail just kept going and going, It was robustly made (for heavy weather) but in reality, although deployed much of the time, it was fairly gently used. Most upwind sailing, when required, was done in moderate to light breezes and the occasional upwind in heavier air, where it was the only headsail deployed, was usually for shorter distances.
Downwind is just not hard on sails.
So, from memory, I can’t say that the sail shape was much compromised over its life as had occurred with the larger mainsail and jib. I loved that sail: good leading edge for some drive, but small sail area. All that said, I can’t really say I love my HyrdraNet staysail more (main and jib topsail, yes, but not the staysail).
There was always something immensely satisfying, for those once a season challenges where one must go to wind in heavy air, to have a perfectly shaped staysail (not a roller reefed headsail) and another perfectly shaped sail in the main with a third reef and to be punching one’s way through the sea with good drive and decent speed and livable angles of heel.
Tough choice you face. I went with HydraNet Radial, certainly in part as I was purchasing the whole package, but I also remember spending time with my sailmaker going over the layout of the panels and choosing the weight/strength clothe that would make for a sail that could spend the vast majority of its time fully deployed in a wide variety of wind speeds, but that could also be called upon to serve as a roller reefed storm jib: a job that it has not been called upon to accomplish. Re-assuring to know it is there, though.
Because of the nature of its design and use, I suspect my staysail will outlast my main and jib topsail which will further amortize its cost: we shall see. All seem to have years left in them.
Let us know what you decide.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Ps. I wonder whether the striking cost difference, which I do not remember being so striking 11 years ago when my sails were built, reflect that Dacron sail prices show the increased degree of automizing that now goes into their construction over 10+ years ago? The use of HydraNet seems clearly to demand more hands-on labor. I am also struck by the price difference from laminate, although I am sure that not all laminates are alike and have little knowledge of them now.
Hi Arne,
Yes, shape matters a lot for staysail, particularly because it tends to be a high aspect ratio sail. Our staysail on the M&R 56 was tri-radial Hydra-Net.
As to two sails for the price of one. That’s not the way I would look at it, but each to their own. Rather I want the best shape I can get for the longest period and Hydro-Net has worked well for me and I would pay the uplift. That said, it’s a good thing you are going tri-radial either way.
One thing I would say categorically, is stay away from laminates for that application. With a hanked on sail you will be stuffing it into a bag regularly and that’s really hard on laminates.
I would also get a comparative quote from another sailmaker since that uplift for Hydra-net seems high.
Thanks both Dick and John!
I included the laminate just for price comparison, I would not want laminate either for this kind of (ab)use.
Also, I’m not really looking at it as a “two-for-one” thing, but more then I started sailing I was scared to damage the sails from rough handling. I have now used my boat for three seasons, and I have yet to damage a sail, even from the rough heavy-weather handling that a hank on headsail gets from time to time. I do however value robustness/durability a lot. So if a heavier HN cloth is more durable, I do think that matters, as I doubt the added weight on this small and low sail makes much difference on a cruiser anyway?
Dick, I also love my staysail. However, I use my staysail more than my Genoa, and especially when going upwind (it seems I am mostly sailing in heavier weather here in the north). It is a 20 year old cross cut Dacron sail that is very baggy, but still so much better than a rolled up Genoa! Even my sluggish centerboard OVNI can compete pretty well upwind with some decent racer-cruisers without inner forestays once the wind is passing 25 knots. I can only imagine/extrapolate what it must be like with a GOOD staysail!
Thanks John for the clear message about staysail shape importance. My staysail is also really high aspect.
I am actually going to the METZ trade show in Amsterdam this week, so I will try to have a chat with some sailmakers and cloth manufacturers and see.
Thanks again!
Hi Arne,
I might meet you at METS then… I’ll be walking around there all 3 days. Wednesday in the Norwegian section there will be some drinks etc, from around 16… Are you in the facebook group “Ovni / Alubat Owners Page”? I’m co admin there, and in “Langturseilere”. Ta gjerne kontakt. 🙂
Hi Stein, thanks, but I don’t have Facebook (or other social media for that matter), though I understand there is quite a few decent groups there that might make it worth getting Facebook?