Maxime took over the Adventure 40 project a bit over four years ago.
Since then he has:
- Selected a naval architect.
- Executed a Gofundme campaign to pay for the preliminary design.
- Supervised the preliminary design process through to completion.
- Come up with many of the innovations in the design, particularly those in the cockpit, which will make the Adventure 40 the best double-handed live-aboard offshore voyaging boat out there.
- Participated in the spirited discussions of each design reveal.
- Managed the engineering of a keel that will be resistant to grounding damage.
- Found a builder interested in both building a prototype and the production boats.
- Secured funding for the prototype.
However, sadly, the person who was funding the prototype recently, and unexpectedly, passed away.
Maxime has overcome many setbacks over the years, but this one caused him to take stock of his personal situation, and he has decided to set the Adventure 40 free so that another entrepreneur can continue the project.
I’m grateful to Maxime for taking the project from an idea detailed in a bunch of articles to a designed boat, and I completely understand his decision to refocus on his family and full time job after years of putting countless unpaid hours into the Adventure 40.
So the question becomes, who is going to pick up the Adventure 40 baton and run it over the finish line?
At the time of writing there are 810 of you who have signed up as interested in buying an Adventure 40.
And a look around at the lack of good offshore boats available, new or secondhand, combined with the advent of remote work and Starlink, confirms that there has never been a better time for the Adventure 40.
The market is there.
So who will:
- Licence rights to the design from Maxime.
- Negotiate a final deal with the builder, or select a different yard.
- Supervise the final design and engineering.
- Secure and manage the seed funding.
- Manage the prototype build and testing.
- Get the production boats built.
Sure, there’s much left to do, but on the other hand, a huge amount has already been done, particularly verifying a market (email list), and designing the boat, so whoever takes over will be way ahead of most entrepreneurs starting a business.
And perhaps best of all, both Maxime and I are happy to advise.
Of course some people will view this situation as a failure, but all that means is that they don’t understand that starting a business is all about overcoming setbacks on the way to success.
Or to put it another way, if starting a business were easy, everyone would be doing it. Are you one of the rare people who has what it takes, a real entrepreneur?
If that’s you, email us and we will put you in touch with Maxime to figure out the handover.
That said, please do not email me to discuss this development or ask questions. I will not engage. As always with the Adventure 40, all discussion happens in the open, so please leave a comment, so everyone can read the answers and participate.
I doubt an Individual Investor(s) or a Corporation will step up for this without a detailed “here’s where we are” document that also outlines the Next Steps and the Dollars to be raised for the launch of Hull 1
At the same time, all 810 subscribers need to be asked again… What is your level of Interest and in what time frame?
Armed with that information a Collaboration Team could be formed to also pursue crowdfunding
There’s still plenty of money out there looking for a good investment
Cheers
Warren
Hi Warren,
I hear you and yes, that would be the B-school, MBA way. But that’s not the way I have seen things develop in the entrepreneurial world I have lived all my life in (five business starts, four successful, three still operating). In that world the first thing we need is a a real entrepreneur to get excited and take over the project. That person will then do what it takes to get it done. I can’t think of one successful small business that has been started by a team approach, although sometimes two or three, rarely more, people work together to make it happen (Microsoft), but even then there is usually one stand out leader.
As to the mailing list, yes, at some point a poll will be a good idea, but again doing that now is putting the cart before the horse. Also realize that polls that ask things like “would you buy a A40” are generally pretty useless, at least in my experence. Anyone can say yes. What matters in the real world is what people actually do and most of all are they actually willing to pay. We already have good success on that front with the GoFundMe, and the next test will be deposits.
Another good sign: the engagement level and unsubscribe rate on the mailing list are off the charts good and have been since day one, which is more meaningful than a poll because it indicated what people actually do, rather than what they say they will do, which is always suspect data.
Bottom line, all successful small business depend on a driven individual who really believes, not a lot of B-school stuff. That stuff can then be prepared to motivate investors, if required.
Anyway, the best news is that, as it this morning, we already have one person interested in taking over.
And finally, I totally agree that there is plenty of money available, we just differ on how to access it.
And John this needs to happen…
I’m not sure there ever will be a “spec sheet” per sec. A simple spec sheet would never do the concepts behind the boat justice and gets us into competing on which boat has the coolest stuff, which is a battle the A40 would always lose and a misguided way to buy a boat.
That said, I do intend a complete re-write of all the chapters to reduce duplication and make understanding the boat a faster read. (The present chapters appeared over the years and therefore could do with tightening up). I have done some already, and hope to finish this winter.
From there… to create Marketing Sizzle we need Deep Dive Bullet Points re Why the Adventure 40 is Special
It’s time now with a Minimal Viable Product to focus on the Marketing and really testing the Market Potential in my humble opinion
Hi Warren,
Sure, there’s plenty to do on marketing, but we already have a lot of that done and I have been pegging away at improving the Adventure 40 page. Take a look: https://www.morganscloud.com/category/boat-design-selection/adventure-40/
Also, to me at least, “deep dive bullet points” is an oxymoron. The way I see it it’s either a deep dive, or bullet points. That said, I agree that we need to explain the boat in the briefest possible way, but that’s already done and has been for years: https://www.morganscloud.com/category/boat-design-selection/adventure-40/
https://www.morganscloud.com/2014/08/31/twenty-adventure-40-core-principles/
And let’s not forget we have already tested the market with the mailing list and GofundMe.
I’m also constantly improving those articles.
That said, if you have suggestions for improving the above and other parts of the page, I’m all ears. I will be working on them over the next few months, as time allows.
Hi John and just feedback…
I contributed to the GofundMe raising and apart from your technical updates, I’ve heard very little that nurtures more enthusiasm…
So re: “Sure, there’s plenty to do on marketing, but we already have a lot of that done”… I feel this project is still under-marketed concerning the market’s awareness of it.
By “deep dive bullet points” I meant “value add / point of difference bullet points”
I regret using the word “Team” at all… because “Collaboration” was my intent and a “Collaboration” can be as small as two… and I completely agree that there must be a passionate Driver.
Hi Warren,
I agree, there always more to do, and things like a presence at boat shows or advertising would be good too, but that requires big money. And that in turn will put the price of the boat up. My guess is that when you buy a French production boat ( you know the brands) 50 cents of each or your dollars goes to marketing and only 50 cents to building the boat. That’s not the way we want to do things.
Once there are boats out there, the boats themselves and the owners will do the selling. That’s how Boreal became a success, and be aware we are being advised by one of the founders of that successful company.
As to explanation of value add, I linked you to two chapters that do just that, and there are a bunch more. One even has bullet points. All of which I will be updating and improving. So if you have specific suggestions for improvement I’m all ears.
By the way, what we have always done with the A40 is called content marketing, and it’s very different that traditional advertising based marketing, but often more effective. Steve Dashew’s boats are a good example of how well content marketing can work.
John,
Have you considered META near Lyon, France? https://meta-yachts.com/en/
I visited them earlier this year. They were competent and open to working with me on developing a ~50′ DS yacht. Philippe Brabetz () is the owner. Marin Docoux (), who used to work for Boréal, is his head designer.
Cheers,
Robert
Hi Robert,
Meta is cool, but they’re a metal boat builder, nowadays aluminium, which means they’re not able to get anywhere close to one of the core goals of the Adventure40: A low price.
The minor extra step in robustness one gets one gets from going from well built glass fibre to aluminium is a big step in cost. Way more money than the difference is worth for most adventure sailors. I’m definitely a fan of aluminium in boats, but glass fibre moulding is the only smart option for the Adventure 40.
My mistake, Stein!
I thought she would be an aluminum boat, knowing how much John likes Boréal! Of course, at that length, GRP will be more cost-effective.
Good luck with the project! She will need to be longer for our needs.
Cheers,
Robert
Hi Robert,
Thanks, for the thoughts.
If you can wait Maxime and I have always talked of a ~A50 once the 40 is well launched. It would make total sense to take the same ideas and apply them to boat of around 32,000 lbs optimized for a family of say four.
Hi Robert,
That would not be for me to manage, but rather the new person in charge. Also, as far as I know, META only builds in aluminium, which the A40 will not be built in: https://www.morganscloud.com/2013/01/07/adventure-40-faqthe-boat/
HI John and Maxime,
I feel sorry for all that work having been put into this, and then hitting a wall. There are many walls to hit in any such project, of course, but the death of a core person is a bad one. I understand how that can deplete the energy and motivation.
I’m not the right person to take this over, but for a moment I did actually feel tempted. I’m 100% sure someone suitable will want to take over. It’s an obviously good idea. The question is just: How to make said person discover the opportunity?
This article is a good start. Also, if each of us here think about all the people we know of, is there one or more we think could be the right one? Should we talk to that person? This might spread the news quite effectively…
Hi Stein,
Spreading the word outside the A40 community is a great idea. I should have suggested that, and I will in a separate post if we don’t get someone suitable from the post above.
Hi Stein,
thank you.
Just one note: in my opinion, one of the requisites for leading the project is to have very good understanding of what AAC is. Most people who haven’t been through the path of getting to know AAC by themselves won’t, at first, realize its true power(s).
Not at all saying that we shouldn’t speak of the project “outside”, but just that explaining AAC is a very substantial part of the pitch – and of what an interested person should be willing to listen to.
Bonjour Maxime,
Thank you for maturing the Adventure 40 so quickly – just a few years! – into an optimal concept that is ready for the next phases of development.
I would like to emphasize the point you make about the need for the next project leader to understand AAC, and the consequences of not meeting this attribute: the Adventure 40 could rapidly become something very different from what its core principles carry. And that applies doubly to any investor that would see A40 as a profit opportunity without being primarily guided by the AAC spirit. The low-cost ambitions could be the first to be put aside.
In terms of project development, the selection of the next leader(s) is THE most critical decision the A40 has faced and is likely to face. Take your time.
Hi Jean-Louis,
I totally agree. In my view the biggest danger to the project would be someone taking over who does not understand the core A40 concepts and therefore builds just another me-to boat.
In fact I see my primary function as being guardian of the A40 concept, so the minute things started to go in a bad direction I would first try and persuade the principle back to the straight A40 road, and if that did not work, write about my concerns. The good news is that with Maxime in control I have never had to do either.
I also think this might be a self fixing problem in that anyone who wants to put in the effort probably already understands the concept.
Hi John and Maxime,
I’m very sorry to hear of the investor’s passing, and that Maxime must let the project go. The Adventure 40 Project has undergone brilliant and sustained progress under his leadership.
As a longtime A40 fan, I offer my sincere gratitude for Maxime’s effort and creativity. He is to be commended not only for the numerous innovations and project milestones he has achieved, but also the self-awareness to know the right moment to step away and turn his focus elsewhere. It takes courage to start such an ambitious project; it takes both courage and wisdom to say, “that’s enough”, and to plan a graceful succession.
In sum, Maxime has made his mark on the Adventure 40 not only as a talented entrepreneur and engineer but also as a conscientious person.
A less wise leader might have left chaos behind. But John’s words show that Maxime leaves the Adventure 40 project in a state that’s both stable and with plenty of momentum, ready to be driven to the next set of milestones by they who grasp the baton.
So I’m sure I’m not the only one who wishes to say, “Thank you, Maxime!” And best wishes for you and your family in the chapter you are now beginning, no matter what that might be.
***
Lastly, for the sake of transparency, I’ll disclose that I’ve corresponded with Maxime and John in the course of my volunteer design work for the project’s preliminary logo and class insignia, t-shirts, business cards and video titles. I also set up the current shop for merchandise. These were small yet joyful projects, and working with Maxime as client and collaborator was a true pleasure!
Hi Scott,
thank you!
Conversely, your involvement is a great exemple of what is so special when working on this project: has anyone ever heard of another commercial project where a designer spontaneously pops out as soon at the very begining, and then comes up with a professional-grade logo that nails it from the first try?? Thank you again!!
Hi Maxime,
Thanks for the kind words!
Hi John and/or Maxime,
I’m curious about a few of details of the current state of planning. General answers to these questions would help give potential self-selecting entrepreneurs a notion of the overall scale of the venture.
1) Does the estimated prototyping and testing budget fall in the range of six or seven figures?
2) What level of non-English language proficiency is needed to effectively communicate with the selected builder?
3) Is there any preliminary information (that can be disclosed publicly) regarding the number of deposits that the builder would need in order to commit to the production line?
Thanks in advance!
Hi Scott,
Good questions, but I don’t know any of the answers. Maxime?
Hi again Scott,
thank you for helping clarify.
1) it does depend on the exact protoyping/investing/etc strategy, but yes, when you sum all the upfronts, including the fact that even after a prototype the first boats of a production run are a bit more expensive than the following ones, you approach or enter the 7-digit domain.
2) if it is to be done with the builder I had selected, ability to work in french would be necessary. That said, a new person can re-open the choices.
3) more generally, answer 1) implies that investing requires investors who assess a long production run as a high probability. More in detail, there can be one of the fund injections relying on a number of deposits, but this is probably not the very core of the setup to work out.
Maxime, thanks for the details.
1) “Around one million” seems to be the intuitive estimate from other commenters as well, so thanks for confirming the general ballpark.
Out of curiosity, did you find much variation in the prototyping cost estimates between the various builders with whom you spoke?
2) Merci. Le vocabulaire d’architecture navale français est un autre défi!
3) That makes sense; the investor is the greater risk taker compared to the builder.
Hi again Scott,
No, not much variation between builders. The main learning would rather be that, the more experienced they are, the more they think that the series production cost, hence price, can be fully worked out only after the prototype build.
Good to know; thanks again Maxime!
Thanks to Maxime and John for bringing us to this point.
I totally agree that a dedicated entrepreneur with the desire and funds is essential. I am a small business owner, so I understand this.
You mentioned that someone with the AAC community has already raised their hand.
That would be wonderful and fast baton hand off.
However, if for some unfortunate reason things don’t pan out with an entrepreneur/angel with a certain time frame (3 – 6 months? year?) to cleanly pick up the baton, I’m sure there is interest/talent/experience within the community that may have ideas (and willing time and contributions) to at least take the A40 to the next higher stage of preparation and possibilities, furthering attractiveness to potential entrepreneur/angel.
Brainstorming/ identifying worthy future milestones/ thinking outside the box, especially with leveraging possibilities online would keep the dream alive and momentum forward.
I’m sure that I speak for others here, that every A40 update is like a breath of fresh air, of hope, possibility, and excitement. I’d hate to see it stall.
The audience of anyone who has dreamed of crossing oceans is BIG. Even if they are too young/ too broke/ too old/ unable due to life circumstances.
Many people would love the A40 “story.”
The A40 story isn’t as niche as you think, even though only two sailors would be sitting in the actual cockpit.
You are presenting an industry “disruptor” story/solution, which happens to be a very popular theme right now.
The number of online followers of “younger” cruisers online platform is HUGE, like https://svdelos.com.
Anyone who has spent longer than 10 minutes “cruising sailboat shopping” could identify with the pain points you present in Model T article. Many people would like to see the A40 story unfold as future tangible milestones are hit, even if they aren’t potential A40 owners (yet)
I’m not proposing that the A40 story will “go viral” as my kids say and solve all problems, however I think there may be other tangible ways to market this dream and help the project move forward.
There is more than one way to raise a million bucks and get the first A40 built.
I’ll leave it at that for now….
Don
Hi Don,
All good observations. Like you, I think the market is a lot bigger than many observers believe.
Really sorry to hear about the sad passing away of the kind funder of the prototype.
Having gone through this process over the last few years myself has been a sobering experience. Double or triple your assumed cost and it will be about right – it is an endless string of a few thousand here, the cost of a mid-sized car or two there. All the stuff that goes into a boat is very expensive even with astute purchasing. Producing in the EU, the States or Canada is prohibitively expensive due to red tape, 5 government leeches per productive member of society and a resulting tax regime that isn’t just expensive but also grossly unfair, etc etc etc. I am sure Maxine knows this only too well. If it takes a few thousand hours in labour to produce such a ship and if the shop rate is let’s say 70 Euros, your hoped-for target cost is spent in labour alone. No materials, none of all the stuff that goes into it. And then the usury VAT (19 to 21 %) on top of that if you are unfortunate enough to reside within the EU.
It is what it is. But while I do not consider the aimed for cost target remotely realistic, there still are ways to minimize the cost. If the hull is produced to high standards and accuracy and if the parts of the furniture can be ordered CNC produced and perhaps kits for the other parts be arranged, then the hours should drastically come down and even self-finishing would be realistic – at least the owner knows the boat in and out in the end.
One option would be forming a cooperative made up of the core of the interested parties that are willing to make the necessary sacrifices to get it. That would provide a clear vehicle for sharing the remaining development and certification cost, to acquire the rights from Maxine and for the forms. Every new owner becomes a member of the cooperative and pays his/her share; previous owners get a refund, accordingly. Incidentally, a cooperative would be the best fit to the spirit of AAC, and quite frankly, I don’t think that this is a project for an entrepreneur, especially with the economy in vast stretches of the Western world in a nose-dive – of the difficult to recover variety at that.
Secondly, the hulls need to be produced somewhere. At this size, South Africa with shipping two hulls in a container would be feasible; it is done with Class 40 yachts routinely. I am sure there are some places in Asia. Turkey might work out, or if it must, absolutely must be the EU, Portugal would be an option. However, building GRP boats requires meticulous work, so whoever does it must be competent and trustworthy.
For each of those, the complete buildout could be done there as well.
Hi George,
The below rant is partly an answer to topics you mentioned, but this got me inspired to comment on related ideas I’ve seen from others too:
I don’t think a cooperative model or self finished boats are good ideas. That will quickly loose all the benefits of a competent builder with a simple and tight plan. The A40 definitely has an interesting slot in the market, unless its core values get watered out…The western market may have some bumpy roads ahead, nobody really knows, but by the time the A40 is ready for market, all may have changed. The right timing for a project like this is when others are pessimistic, so they don’t do anything interesting.
I think it’s important to delete all ideas of making a boat so cheap that anyone can buy it Such a boat would be expensive in the long run, since it would need major upgrades before any use and need significant maintenance too early. That’s the exact opposite of the goal for the A40.
I also think we need to completely discard the original price target number. It’s become meaningless. Since we have had a period of quite high inflation, (real inflation way higher than the official numbers), which is far from ended, the original price target number is just a shot in the dark. Not useful. I’m not competent enough to give realistic numbers, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the same value today was approaching double of the original target some years ago. Many boats have more than double the price the same model had back then. This isn’t only caused by greed. The target price for the A40 must be related to the current money value and the other boats on the market, not to wishful thinking. Denying that points to quick bankruptcy.
My point is just that a 40-something foot ocean ready sailboat of high build quality and reasonable cost is still a significant amount of money. It MUST be built professionally with very tight control. If not, it’s neither high quality nor low cost. That doesn’t mean one shouldn’t look for ways to reduce costs. If looking for a relatively cheap production country inside the EU, Poland has a proven track record. There are also options in the Balkans. Elan is built there.
Hi Stein,
Not a rant at all; just another take on the same conundrum.
The reason why I would give self-finished a shot is that everything else can be done from 3D models quite accurately, predictably and with parts fitting reasonably well where they need to go. GPR can be done by a firm set up to do it competitively as well and the places you mention would all be options. Finishing work with hiqh-quality and well-fitting components can be done by someone who is good with his hands, after all look at all the people doing massive refits themselves – it is about the same skill base and that’s where a lot of the hours are.
Fully agree with your points on prices, and yes, true inflation has been really bad. Except for being too optimistic with estimates, I have never thought cheap – we pick what we consider the best and we work with healthy sizing-reserves, but if labor-cost can be substituted with sweat-capital without hurting quality, then that’s an obvious angle.
The reason why I would not discard the cooperative model, it spreads the risk much better, it provides a support community and it avoids the pain when the builder goes belly-up. The fact that the “neoliberals” loath them alone should be a seal of approval warranting a second look. Furthermore, while busy, even places with strong builder’s communities such as in the Netherlands struggle with finding young people willing to take over, most are owned by old geezers who will be the last in their families doing this. I know of one, who is over 70 already and completely booked up till 2028. Last but not least, many yards that used to build now only service – there is plenty of work and it is charged by time and material, hence little risk.
Yes, timing is a key point.
Last, but not least, getting to a tight plan with a small series is very difficult. Theoretically, it can be all optimized in specs, plans, 3D files and the like; realistically, it isn’t nearly as tight as desirable and one little error throws the planning off or results in a problem for the customer later on. It would take serious iterative improvements over a few builds, which means the first few boats would cause a considerable loss. I have heard reports of production boats that had so many issues that they could be hardly moved off the yard on the keel because one thing after another failed. This is the biggest struggle for reputable, experience builders – if a couple of workers don’t work out or if there has been a mistake estimating (and they do have highly refined models for that), they are out a couple of hundred thousand. This is not for the faint of heart, for sure.
Hi George,
I hear you on many of these issues with production boats, but we have already addresses many times how the A40 will be different, see the links in my answers to Stein’s comment.
Hi Stein,
I too have doubts about a coop. In fact, if you look at any successful coop endeavour there is almost always a single individual, or maybe two, driving the coop project and there is a name for people like that: entrepreneur
That’s not to say that some sort of coop funding model to get into production won’t work, but step one is still to find the one or two people who will drive the project.
As to price, I have already agreed that the original US$200,000 is out of date (off course it was 12 years ago) and Maxime and I are talking of a new target, which I will write about soon, but it’s not double, and not even close when adjusted for inflation.
And there was never any intent to build anything other than a high quality boat. I explain how that can be done at the price here: https://www.morganscloud.com/2012/11/30/adventure-40-its-about-displacement-and-righting-moment/
Added to the point I make in that post, we won’t be spending what I estimate to be 50% of the boat price on marketing and sales expenses like the big production builders do. I explain how that can be done here: https://www.morganscloud.com/2015/07/25/unbundling-the-adventure-40/
And basically marketing of the A40 is free, through AAC content marketing, which will only get better over time, but is already very successful.
Hi John,
As any association, a coop lives from the participates that engage. The membership at large makes it economically feasible. There are many entrepreneurs with the right product on the right time, the right competence and the heart at the right spot, but they still fail because economies are brutal – especially nowadays where loans for anything but B-flat projects are near-impossible to get, even if the ROI flys through the roof. This is where I think a coop could be the solution, but the decision will be anyways with the people who take the project on.
Just reread the referenced articles. Your first, and the Dashews’, argument is that this essentially comparable to a 32 footer in cost. Point taken. The second argument, concerning unbundling, is spot on, as well, and a good approach for any small builder.
I do not think that marketing cost of production boats is anywhere near 50%; the dealers will be somewhere around 10% and while the shows are very expensive, the cost is spread over many models and units. In many cases the dealers are invited to be part of the show, free of charge but also working the customers free of charge for the builder, so the firms get a lot of play for their money.
Last, but not least, it doesn’t cost much less to develop a small boat and get it ready for the market than it takes a big one.
Will be interesting to see with what target price you will come up.
So or so, I’d be thrilled to see the project succeed!
Hi George,
While I agree that while building the prototype we would experience all of the issues you are facing on a custom boat, I don’t think extrapolating that to the production A40 is right. Building a simple production boat with no options (one of the keys to success) and no complex systems (another) is very different and I think quite doable in, for example, France at the target price. That said, at the moment Maxime and I are discussing what the new target price should be based on his experience to date and inflation since we last set a target. I will publish on t hat shortly.
Hi John,
I hope you are right on this one as I would love to see this project succeed.
My son’s trade is setting up production runs of 500 to 5000 items for completed, tested and otherwise promising designs. It’s a cliffhanger every single time and he really knows what he is doing. Silly things like that only screws with the wrong head can be sourced can cause a stop of weeks. While on a custom project, errors increase the cost of the ship, they may very well kill the entire project before it even gets into producing. The no-options approach helps. The complex systems are a non-issue, in most cases they are add-ons; the basic ship is still the same. All I am saying, building just a basic ship in good quality at reasonable cost is a challenge, even for experienced yards with decades of experience.
Firstly, from my own experience I have to agree that any sort of venture needs a leader. A person who will do what is necessary to get things done. But that said, there is a very strong example of how a effective a collective can be. The Dutch East India Company (Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie or: Collective East India Company) started out in the 17th century as a collective of entrepreneurs that put money together to build bigger boats. These boats enabled them to sail to South Asia and establish a spice business. Along the way they invented public shares and became the founders of modern capitalism. The VOC went on to become the most valuable business the world has ever seen, more valuable than Google, Microsoft and Apple put together. Amsterdam was largely built on VOC money. The VOC never had a dominant leader. Things were always hashed out collectively.
Secondly, one of the most important establishments in the VOC network was Ceylon, nowadays Sri Lanka. It may have nothing to do with it, but as it happens Sri Lanka today has some very able and forward thinking businesses involved in boat building and water sports. I should know, because I work with some of them as a consultant and designer. The local rates are way lower than the rates in the western world. Some Dutch high quality yachts are built on Sri Lanka. I could pass some names in a private message.
Hi Igor,
Interesting thoughts on Sri Lanka. I’m sure the three people who have come forward as interested in taking over will be monitoring this and if one or more of them ask, I will put you together with them.
Hello again
Sorry to hear about the passing of your angel investor and that Maxime needs to move on onto other projects.
He was indeed responsible to the great lenghts the project has come so far.
Ive the read the comments, trying to learn something from them and to inform myself a bit better about the issue at hand.
I dont trust people, i trust their actions.
People often ask me why, and my answer is always: why would i trust a complete stranger, whom i dont know, have had no contact with, be it in a personal or commercial way? makes no sense to me.
Even when the boat price was at the 200/250k, ive said that there was not enough money to get it going from a building standpoint, ie, no big incentive for the builder.
There are apparently, 820 people interested in having this boat. I´ll believe that when i see it.
even IF you get half of them to buy the boat that would be tremendous. ask me again: do you believe that will happen. My answer is no.
Since the inception of the project, 12 years have passed.
Now thats a long time to wait for a boat.
People that were 50 are now 62, still think they will face “cruising the world” the same way? i doubt it for the most part.
Do i think the boat is a good idea? i do
Do i think you should scrape the word “affordable”? i do.
Why? because you will have to adjust the price after 12 years plus inflation and so on.
It is only rational you change price point. Only a numpty wouldnt get this.
Other way of getting the boat out there:
Since the beginning i pointed out at the kit idea.
If you are so confident in the quality of the boat itself, and its components, then it shouldnt be hard to come up with a “puzzle” that reflects the quality.
The advantages?
You open the possibility for ppl to build it at home, saving money and adhering to the strict quality of the project
You make possible that small yards build it in a more timely manner.
You maintain the design costs down by offering the core concept of A40: SIMPLES SYSTEMS, whilst letting it up to the owner to complicate the systems at his will (its his onus when the time comes for him to resell the boat, if he ever resells)
You charge for the design, the time involved in putting everything together, and i mean for every bolt and nut, all scantlings, mast section and specs, rigging specs, i mean EVERTYHING.
You can sell it in different packages, from the basic: the hull components, say strip plank building, grp cloth, epoxy resin kit, etc, etc, etc
To the premium package, where the person buy everything including, mast, standing rigging, running rigging, boom, sails, anchor, chain, you get the idea, the one stop shop, and you make sure you charge for it, but be reasonable
i would say that a lead keel is much better because an amateur or small yard can cast it, as opposed to a iron one.
By now i think your biggest fear/opposing argument, to this approach is how can you assure the top quality of the final product: the boat.
You can do this by providing carefull selected and quality controlled materials, which is easy because you are going to work with reputable manufacturers, say Selden for Spars, Northsails/Precision for sails, Harken Lewmar for deck hardware, and so on.
How do you get an attractive price for the kit buyer?
By assuring exclusivity to the manufacturer, by giving them visibility on the A40 page, and in return, they sell the hardware with a nice discount.
On the other end, you tell the costumer that you will find this price if you buy the A40 kit.
I think its clear by now how this would be processed.
In the end, do you want to see your creation sailing across the seas, right?
Hi Pedro,
Yes, the kit idea is interesting but I doubt it’s practical. For a production yard, which is what we need to hit the price point, building a bunch of different kits would be a logistical nightmare in my view. The whole idea of the A40 and why I believe that it can be built at the price (adjusted for inflation), and still be high quality, is by removing all options and all ambiguity, and building kits is the exact opposite. The other issue is I doubt very much that a home builder would save any money over an efficiently set up mass production yard.
Also, dealing with a bunch of kit builders at retail, many with no experience, would be an absolute nightmare for the gear manufacturers, so I doubt they would offer a discount. There are good reasons for the difference between retail and industry pricing. For example selling 50 identical masts to a builder who knows exactly what to do with them is very different from selling 50 masts to individuals who will all need supporting.
My thinking is that if kit boats worked there would be kit boats available, and at least as far as I know, there are no kit boats being sold today and if memory serves there have been no kit boats since the Corbin 39 and the Westsail 32 some 40 years ago.
Hi Pedro,
You have several good points. I think both John and Maxime are well aware of them, though. Since I’ve built and designed several boats myself, I think I can comment authoritatively on the kit build suggestion. Conclusion: It’s not a good idea.
Boat build kits were very popular until about 30 years ago. They still exist, but are now a microscopic segment of the market. Their attraction is a relatively low initial cost, and that one gets a hobby, skills and a very intimate knowledge of the boat. All that is great and seemingly fits the Adventure 40 spirit perfectly. However, that’s not the whole story, by far.
Reality is that the majority, at least 70%, of all kits never get finished. Why? It’s a massive task, needing real skills and lots of very uncomfortable work, nowhere near the LEGO idea some sellers tried to convey. Any kit is way closer to a full build than it seems. It’s NEVER just gluing some parts together and mounting the equipment. That’s the big illusion. The number of hours a normal amateur must put in, counting it all, is in the many thousands, several full work years, which is a multiple of what pros would need.
If I need 10 hours to do some task (including figuring it out and getting the parts and tools) and a pro needs one hour and gets a better result, the pro is way cheaper for me than me doing it. If I consider my lost time as lost income, which we always should, me doing something isn’t cheap at all! We should still do things ourselves, of course, but we absolutely need to be selective.
– What brings me pleasure?
– What am I sufficiently competent in?
– How long do I want to be busy with this task?
– Can I, cost wise, compete with a pro in this?
If a pro wharf has a cost of 100 per hour for each worker and uses 10 person hours on some task, and I use 100 hours on that task, which is VERY optimistic in any kit build scenario, my wage per hour needs to be lower than 10 per hour. Is that smart use of my time at work?
A self built boat will almost always be much lower quality and much more expensive, if all real costs are counted, including a minimal hour cost, than the exact same boat built in a wharf by professionals. A kit boat will also ALWAYS have a much lower second hand value. The quality difference is well known in the market. Yes, there are of course also many examples of kit builds or even self designed and built boats that are far better than the normal production boats, but judging from unicorns is an illusion.
The kit builds of some decades ago were not meant as scams, (with some exceptions), but IRL they still mostly ended up functioning as scams. They predominantly turned dreams into tragedies and completely ruined thousands of lives. Just two months ago I considered buying one such. Project started in 1970. The owner was a naval architect working for several navies. He was quite handy. He was also a perfectionist, which is probably why the boat was still not finished after having been continuously been worked on for 54 years. Amazing boat, Van De Stadt design. The engine was from 1974 and had never been used, like all the rest. The life of a smart and charming guy had been consumed by the boat project. His dream was never reached. He’s 92 and has finally realised the boat won’t be finished. It’s 47 feet and sold for 22 000 Euro….
Kit builds have a track record that doesn’t need more proof. It’s a very bad idea for most people who want to go cruising. If building something is the goal, building a boat is great. Anyone who wants a boat to use it, and isn’t a professional boat builder or close to it, should BUY the boat, in good shape. Never build it, no matter how easy it seems. Easy is just not true.
Hi Stein,
I totally agree with all of that. Most of it applies to refits too. The whole idea of the A40 is that the boat will enable people to go cruising without the agony (for most) of either a home-build or a refit.
i probably didnt make myself clear sinnce i didnt mention the, to me, obvious way of making this work.
its called CNC
and im sure it isnt a novelty amosg such knowledgeable ppl here im the forum.
this is how you get a LEGO kind of boat with milimeteic acuracy
there are thousands of ppl building from kits worldwide in all shapes, sizes and materials
what the kit manufacturers never supply is the building jig, for that entails a few more autocad hours, but that is the piece around which all precision revolves around.
when i mentioned that you would charge for everything i meant everything, including dealing with the manifacturers, to get not only the spars all done in conjunction with all rigging, as i said a one stop shop.
good materials, good instructions and support, will ensure or mitigate a lack of qualitity (as if production boats werent built by unqualified ppl as shown by the debacle of the lagoons 450, this one going ever further as it was a design flaw)
i thought you wanted to sell boats, a good booat for cruising, as reliable as the ppl that built it. i get it that its a much smaller market, but a market still.
good luck
Hi Pedro,
I do understand about CNC, in fact I mention it several times in the A40 articles, but to me that’s not the issue. Rather the issue is the lack of cost effectiveness of kit boats and that the whole idea is that the A40 is a boat that people can go cruising in without a huge project before hand.
Perhaps if you read the original article that will clarify the goal here:https://www.morganscloud.com/2012/01/23/low-cost-offshore-voyaging-boat/
And this one expands on that: https://www.morganscloud.com/2013/10/10/adventure-40-an-overview/
Also, I think you are a bit unclear on my role in the A40. At age 73 I have no interest in selling or building boats, and in fact never did. I came up with the concept, have promoted it, and remain the guardian of the fundamental and a reporter, but that’s it.
If you want to build a kit boat based on the A40 concept, that will be great and I will report on it and wish you good fortune proving me wrong about the cost problem.
Hello Jonh
If you are expecting me to believe that you have no comercial interest in this, all im going to say is: you are going to have a real hard time selling that one to me.
And i do consider yourself a good seller, judging from what ve seen written here thru the years.
Im still refitting my boat.
Due to personal reasons ive had to relocate from Asia to Europe and my humble Van de Stadt Pioneer 9 is still in Asia, so the refit continues its just a bit harder thats all. I will see it thru, and thats what matters to me.
About 8 years ago i had Jonh Raymond-Barker redesign one of his Bristol Pilot Cutter models down to 47 feet to suit my needs.
If i ever build a boat, thats the boat that i will build from a kit i will develop myself, just need to lash out a few more pounds to have someone convert, scantlings wise, the building method, from traditional to wood epoxy (strip plank, cold molded or even the 2 together to make a frameless hull with great advantages in terms of internal volume) and thats because its time i dont have to do it myself, and i prefer a professional doing it for me.
The autocad bit is easy and i get a kick out of doing it
I like the idea of the A40, i just think a pilot cutter is a better boat, way better if im being completely honest.
Sure you need to develop an eye and a taste for old shapes, but the knowledge embeddeded in those old lines , blows everything out of the water when it comes to seaworthiness.
Everybody wants the shiny stuff, till they are out there caught in a F11, then we see which boat takes care of you.
But to your point, and knowing that everyone here is aware that building a hull is the cheap end, and kitting it up is the expensive one, and your approach to ” you need only a hand held vhf to go cruising”, i cant see where a resourceful person, after a compelling research in the webs, wouldnt be able to find good deals with manufacturers.
Again there is always that thing: Time.
Like Thomas Sowell said: there are no solutions, only trade-offs.
Your new price will be around 350/400k.(minimum)
if i take your spartan approach to electronics, the A40 is completely doable for 200k, one “just” needs to build it. again, a trade off.
There is a Swedish couple building a 50 footer, the guy does the heavy lifting, the wife is a precious help, and their 50 ft will end costing around 350k.
Dont tell it cant be done, or that it is a very bad idea, Sven.
Its just not for everybody.
yes, not all projects are seen to completion, thats life, its not because “boat kits dont work”,
if its a good kit a quarter of the work is done,
if it is a really good kit, one will be able to count the amount of times you will need to use a tape measure.
Hi Pedro,
Maxime volunteered a small commission on every boat sold, but that’s now dead, so at the moment I have no financial interest in the A40 and will never hold any potential builder’s hand to any sort of fire to get one.
If you ever accuse me or anyone else of lying, or even imply it, again, I will delete your comment and close your membership without a refund. I will not tolerate that kind of behaviour.
It’s fine to disagree, but in a polite way that respects other opinions.
I would suggest that now would be a good time for you to read our comment guidelines: https://www.morganscloud.com/2013/11/10/aac-comment-guide-lines/
its a pity seeing ppl behaving this way.
Silencing opposing voices, you have a paid eco chamber
Pedro,
Given the lack of context such as tone of voice, expression, and with many folks (more talented than I) writing and reading in a non-native language, my experience is that it’s best to give someone the most charitable/favorable interpretation of their comments.
While it’s interesting to read all points of view, it’s also very tedious to read comments when people seem to argue for the sake of arguing. One of the reasons AAC is a nice antidote to the typical forum site is because that kind of interaction is frowned upon.
Perhaps try rereading the exchange above and rethinking your approach.
If I were in your shoes I might write something along the lines of, “I apologize for the wording of my comment as I did not intend to imply dishonesty. Rather, I was surprised (and impressed) that someone could expend so much effort motivated by something other than direct financial gain, (initially hard for me to imagine).”
Hi Pedro,
You know perfectly well that I’m fine with being disagreed with and never delete comments because of that. So if you wish to state your cases, that’s fine. Just make sure you do it within our comment guidelines.
ive cancelled the menbership you can proceed with the blockling
You still have access up until your membership expires and I feel no need to block you at the moment. As long as your comments fall within our guide lines they will appear and stay, regardless of whether or not I agree with them. Comments that don’t comply I will delete without further warning, like the last two.
im not interested in having access
Your choice.
Pedro,
You just don’t learn. That comment about women was way out of line and I have deleted your comment for it. Tell that to the 5 women that just finished the Vendée Globe. I’m done with you. I’m closing your account as of today.
Hi Pedro,
You probably won’t read this, as you seem to have left the site. That’s a pity. You will definitely not find another place with anywhere near this level of competence and ability to discuss relevant topics nicely, while efficiently teaching even the most competent participants something new, all the time.
You mention this is an echo chamber. Apart from being absolutely not true, that’s an insult to all participating here. You’re far from the first to disagree. The problem isn’t disagreement, but how to treat it. I love disagreeing with people, since that’s how I can learn more, but only as long as I KNOW that the other person might be right, or at least that our positions are different, so we might both be right. Starting a discussion with the goal of “winning” means loosing is the only option.
Your English seems very good, but perhaps there are linguistic barriers at play? I’m also not from an English speaking country, so I can identify with that. We are all emotional too. We attach to our opinions as if they’re friends we’re afraid of losing. I do that too, of course, but through the years I’ve gotten good at catching myself in that act and correcting it. Not always, but often. I get the impression that you could think some about that too?
Anyway, about the topic itself:
Your comments are confirming exactly what I tried to explain above. You compare costs between a ready to sail Adventure 40 and a self build kit. My point is just that those two are not comparable in price. They’re not anywhere near the same thing. One is a boat ready to go. The other is a pile of materials needing years of work. A well made CNC kit helps dramatically, but it’s still years of work.
Ian Farrier, the designer of the Corsair Trimarans, was long considered the best on the market when it comes to well made kits and extremely detailed instructions. Several books, videos, phone consultations, absolutely complete kits, even with pre made parts. Still an estimated (by Ian himself) less than 50% of the thousands of sold kits were ever finished. That says it all…
You mention the Swedish YouTube channel Ran Sailing. I’ve bumped into them a few times, last time at the METS in Amsterdam. Really nice and competent people. Their estimated build cost is as you mention about 350 000 Euro. However, that’s pure materials and equipment cost. In does not include the estimated 6 full years of full time building they expect. Also it doesn’t include that they bought a small farm on the Swedish countryside for the build.
Another more relevant YouTube channel is MJ Sailing. They have at the moment been busy for about 4 years with putting together the pre made pieces of their production catamaran, and expect at least two more years. That’s from ready moulded parts. A complete boat. And they’re two smart and handy people working full time on this.
Is this boat cheaper for any of those YouTube channels than buying the same boat finished? Obviously very far from it. The self build / kit option is way more expensive if all is included. However, Ran Sailing clearly stated that the build itself was a goal. He is a professional carpenter and wanted to build their next boat. Also, YouTube channels live off the interest in what the people are doing. It’s their job. Their hours may not pay well as value added to a boat, but when the income from the videos are included, they can make it work. Most people who want a boat cannot do it that way.
We have to look at the complete cost as we hoist sail the first time. That calculation will be hugely in favour of production boats. Does that mean kits or complete self builds shouldn’t exist? No, of course not. They are the right choice for the right people. Those who se the build as a goal in itself. I’m that type of person. As mentioned I’ve built several boats. I will build again. But my goals are different from at least 99% of those who want a sailboat to sail it, and my knowledge and skill level is fully professional. I will still never make money from building one boat. No chance! If I were to build ten exactly same boats, I might get close to something, if everything is right. That’s just math. There’s no way around it.
As one of those following the A40 project from the beginning, I don’t want to see this project wither. I’m one of those on the prospective buyers list and would be willing to take part in a lottery for the first boat. I’m thinking of a $2000 buy in with with a maximum of 150-200 tickets depending on the proposed price point.
Don’t know the legal ramifications or whether this would work internationally. Hopefully it could jump start the process and get closer to producing a real boat, then prospective buyers would be feel better about putting down a deposit. It could also produce a good deal of buzz, bringing more people into the A40 fold.
Hi Steven,
Interesting idea, but before we can do that we still need to find someone to take over the project. You remind me that I need to write about that. Thanks.