In previous A40 articles we revealed the hull, cockpit, and rig, and then took a look at the deck layout.
Now let's go below to check out the areas aft of the salon, and then in the next article I will cover the salon and forward cabin.
The Offshore Voyaging Reference Site
This boat design is looking fantastic for a couple. I’m ecstatic about the cutter rig and hard dodger in particular. I can’t wait to see the final product! The timeline for production may even line up well with when I would want to acquire a boat for the intended purpose as well. Exciting stuff! Keep up the good work Maxime and John!
Great that the boat works for you and the timing too, thanks for the encouragement.
Great to read this, many thanks!!
A question about toilet / heads / shower (I have very similar area on my current boat).
Showering underway is a huge luxury and can transform a beat-up bedraggled self into someone seemingly civilized like magic. I would counsel against sitting in the toilet however, if at all on a heel: the hinges are just not robust enough to tolerate the side loads and will rip right off.
In fact, it is almost required, in my experience, to bolster the side load security by small “right angle supports” attached under the seat that catch to sturdy bowl, probably of porcelain, and preclude any side slipping. Mine are of white Starboard and are almost un-notice-able. Without these, the seat will quickly slide off the bowl and rip off (or loosen) the hinges when sitting at a heel.
And, sitting may happen more often, as, if like on Alchemy, men are “required” to make all deposits from a sitting position: most men have an inflated idea of the accuracy of their aim (and splatter matters).
In the bathroom as designed, for a shower, I would likely try to sit on an inverted bucket over the grid or just sit on the grid itself with the shower in hand. The latter is the safest, perhaps not the most elegant, but I suspect you will still emerge to get in your off-watch sleeping bag clean and feeling great.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
1. If its rough showering is not practical, in my experience. That said a rinse of the of the head to get the salt off will work fine while standing over the sink and braced with the other hand. I used to do this at the end of most rugged watches. Other than that, if you really want a shower in those conditions, sitting on the floor as Dick suggests is the safest.
2. Up to you. You have both aft utility cabins to set up anything you want for this function. When I wrote the post I was more thinking of a place to let it drip for a bit at the end of the trip before putting it in the utility room. Another option would be to take it off under the dodger and let it drip there. Might need a bit of shock cord to hold it in place. Lot’s of different ways to set this up so it works for each of us. That’s the A40 way
3. I can’t see why, since there will be plenty of room there with the front and side panels off, and way more room than I have ever seen on a boat this size. There is over 50 cm between that bulkhead and the side of the engine. Anyway, rest assured that access to important stuff like filters and dip stick will be planned for, but it’s too early in the process to get into that level of detail
4. Tankage will be discussed in another article. That said, as currently envisioned, the bottom of the black water is above the waterline.
on 2., you may hang the foul weather gear in the “corridor” in the heads towards the equipment bay – very accessible yet out of the way. By the way, when not sailing and taking a shower, the same place can be used for the dry towel and clothes, behind the curtain we’ve represented, or a similar arrangement.
Hi John and all,
I enjoyed the interior tour and the sharing of your thinking about the trade-offs. The equipment room might benefit from owners considering the vice below:
This is just a heads-up on what I consider a great vice for any boat. It is a Zyliss vice and it is made of some sort of metal alloy, I suspect aluminum based. It is extremely versatile with lots of accessories to handle metal, pipes, wood, lathe work etc.: all best shown by googling. Mine is 30-40 years old and is like new.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Ps. The Zyliss vice is, perhaps, not ideal when it comes to holding metal that you really want to lean on, although this may depend more on what the vice is attached to. I did need a heavy steel vice attached to an anvil to lever off a seized shackle I could not otherwise get off my anchor.
My best, Dick
Great idea. I had one of those years ago and it was great and very flexible.
I’m currently playing with ideas for this on my boat. Much more limited on space at 33′, but one idea I keep coming back to is a blacksmith’s leg vice, mounted on the aft rail. Upside is excellent clamping force, and the leg transfers the load of leaning on or using a sledge. Downside being if you guess wrong you lose whatever it was over the side. Other contenders are the Grip-on pliers and mounts, basically a pair of vice grips with mounts to clamp. can hold long thin things easily, pipe etc. Works well where I don’t have a big steel vice.
As a side note, my galley is similar, and the head as well, it’s nice to see all this brilliant design work going on here showing that the choices already made are likely the best that can be given my space limits. I quite like my sink/counter layout, possibly a little more, might be worth a look for the A40. Sinks themselves are closer to centerline, and in my case angled slightly. Gives me the largest counter area possible by the stove, and right behind me a cutting board over the sink works well, I have my food scraps tub in the non-cutting board topped sink, easy to swipe off into it but doesn’t use up space at other times. I’m still deciding what to do about the nav station, it’s wholly impractical as you noted here. If I run out of things to do, I’m thinking a modified Japanese style step in tub, it has an integral seat, watertight door and is not tall. On a passage it would be a well contained wet gear overflow, with a table top just ahead of the head itself, still usable as a nav station too and probably more comfortably than my current one. A tri-fold tabletop would allow for navigation use, and also a large surface adjacent to the galley. My hanging locker in the quarter berth just to one side is elegant though, as it’s the berth for off-watch and has a drain and good ventilation. Much skinnier than I thought was practical until I figured out it holds one set of wet gear and a life-jacket perfectly with it’s own drain. I wish it was big enough to justify the aft storage area behind the head, but as it is the locker is already so small as to make changing it to an inside access not easily doable I think.
I totally agree with the raised coaming and cockpit levels creating more volume aft of the companionway. My boat does not have this height, which means everything there is a crawl space; which in turn means it is very hard to efficiently utilise the already limited volume back there efficiently.
Definitely of the compromises I would change if I could.
So true. Yesterday, I was under the cockpit on our J/109 working on the steering and dreaming of an A40…when not hitting my head.
Really good to see a design coming together that is optimised for long distance short-handed sailing and not for partying in a marina! The rig, hard dodger, cockpit layout, flat foredeck, attention to weight distribution are near perfect. Really pleased also that you have resisted the temptation of putting cabins at the back and have gone for masses of storage/work/technical space.
Also really like the “no coaming” cockpit. I can imagine it could end up being a comfortable position to keep watch in good weather, sitting against the pushpit with legs stretched forward.
Also think about cockpit storage for the small stuff – binoculars, cameras, suncream, shampoo for stern shower which you need to have handy rather than burying to the bottom of a locker where the small stuff always finishes.
I would like to see some thought to integrating a dual-use lightweight boarding plank (just a plank nothing fancy) into the cockpit design. Maybe as a back rest for occasional use in the cockpit, or as a bench seat at the rear of the cockpit?
I share your slight disappointment that there is no space for a separate shower stall that can double as a wet locker, ideally just at the bottom of the ladder. I would happily sacrifice saloon space and to achieve it. But if it can’t be done so be it.
On the subject of the saloon, I hope there will not be too much space wasted on a huge table which (on my boats anyway) never gets used to its full seating capacity. Most of the time I would end up using the saloon table as office space, rather than eating (which takes place upstairs whenever possible). So I would like to see some sort of consideration for “office -use” eg integrated power outlets, good storage, or if that is not possible then at least make it easy for the owner to customise. On both my previous boats I ended up chopping out the ridiculous saloon tables and making something smaller.
Please don’t delete the existing galley trash design! So much easier to use (and clean) than a locker inside a cupboard. And they don’t diminish galley working space as you can place pots and pans on top of the lids. I have this arrangement on my existing boat and it is way nicer and cleaner than my old boat with trash in a cupboard. I agree that extending the tip of the “U” would make it more practical when it gets rough, and add more counter top too.
Keep up the good work I am really liking how this project is coming together.
thank you for the kind words!
And thank you for the heads up on the boarding plank – we’ll soon make a few adjustments around the transom, better make sure that they work well with a plank being around, if it can be done without compromising something else.
What you write on the shower stall is exactly how we felt when we designed the heads! Also note that the resulting heads is quite large for this size of boat, and this is part of the tradeoff.
On the saloon table, the video John embedded into the article will give you some answers – but let’s discuss the details under the next article!
And my experience of this trash design is the exact same as yours! (although probably shorter)
Also disappointed re the separate shower stall. But I trust that the designer has made the right compromise here.
Re extending the counter aft into the current pantry shelves. Maybe that could be done while still leaving a storage shelf above the extended counter?
My thought exactly.
Sure, that might work. I had already figured that the sliding door cabinet would be extended aft with this change, but maybe a shelf could go above it. That said, now I think about it, adding a shelf is relatively easy so the best alternative might be to leave the space clear and let each owner decide.
Just a question/suggestion: Why are all galley sinks divided when every woman sailor I’ve ever spoken to wishes she had a larger, single sink to wash her pans? If a second sink area is desired, it’s easy enough to set a plastic tub down into the larger sink. One more nit picking idea: Most faucet retrofits, including ours, replace the slightly angled faucet with a gooseneck design that has a head that can be pulled down to rinse out the corners of the sink.
I’m very lucky in that my wife loves to cook and doubly lucky that she prefers to do the washing up as she goes along! She has a definite preference for the ‘one and a half’ sink layout that aids drainage and/or food washing when there’s stuff in the main sink.
That’s what Phyllis and I have found too. On the M&R we had two sinks, but that was on a bigger boat. Our J/109 has two, one large, one small, which seems a good way to do it on smaller boats.
Completely agree with the ‘one larger sink’ idea: you simply can’t wash that one big pot that we all have one of in a small sink. In our land base (in a house we designed and had built) we put a laundry sink in the kitchen, and everyone who see it loves it. And yes to the gooseneck tap suggestion, too.
Wow, in my house you would be very close to the dog house with that comment. “Wash her pans” yikes. Only women wash or own pans?
Anyway, both Phyllis and I prefer two sinks, but I do agree if they are both too small, one is better.
I agree that an extending head is nice on the galley faucet.
Hi Alan, John and all,
I’m planning a refit of our galley and will definitely get rid of the one and a half sink. The big one is too small for washing big items comfortably and the small one just a waste of space. That layout annoys me enough to think of ugly words. 🙂 I’ll be building the new solution and I do 95% of the dishes, (30% of the cooking) so even if my GF is a bit sceptical, this is how it will be! 🙂
I want a single much bigger sink. I want it deeper than usual, to make plenty space for safe storage of dishes. It will also be much longer than the combined length of the two we have now. The drip area will also be in/above the sink.
Along both longitudinal edges of the sink, I want an edge or rail to hold cutting boards and dish racks. These can be slid sideways to any position above the sink. Cutting boards will then be flush with the rest of the bench top. When slid to the end of the sink, they will fit tight. The sink will be rectangular, with sharp corners. The bottom will be inclined towards the drain hole in one corner.
This very large sink can be separated into smaller compartments by inserting a loose plate, or by putting a plastic tray inside it. I’m happy with taking a significant part of the counter space, because the drip rack and cutting board(s) will usually be above the sink. They can also be put on the bench next to the sink, of course.
The faucet will be a normal kitchen type that can swing sideways, but it will be placed on the wall/splash guard, not on the counter. I see zero point in having a horizontal ledge behind the sink to gather grime. The backsplash will go straight into the sink, only interrupted by the edge/rail for the cutting board etc. Same at the side where we stand. As close to no edge thickness as possible. More volume and far better ergonomics. Holding the arms forward more than necessary for a prolonged period is bad for our health, even if we are healthy.
In addition to this faucet, I’ll have a small shower head with an on/off lever straight on it. I’ll use the type that is normal for outside showers. Osculati Tiger is stainless and costs around 30 Euros. I’ll use it for rinsing off soap from dishes and clean off the counter top. It also reaches the stove, for filling kettles. It has a mixer for hot and cold on the splashguard. The hose hangs inside the bench. The head sits in a raised hole in the countertop, close to the splashguard, between the sink and the stove. Ready instantaneously. One hand operation.
I haven’t decided on materials and all details yet, but I’m considering making it all in one piece by glueing Corian. Reasonably light (if keeping the thickness to 6mm), durable, easy to work with and looks professional. An alternative is a combination of a stainless steel sink and a coconut wood counter top covered in lots of epoxy. I’ve seen equipment for pro kitchens looking about right. The angular design sink I want is also not too expensive to get made one off in stainless plates, bent and welded. Even the whole countertop and sink in one piece stainless is realistic, but I don’t think we’ll go that way.
For a a production boat like this, I think a mould for the whole thing is worth considering…? Or use a separate stainless sink attached under a glass/foam counter top? Sinks like that are available. Perhaps owners want another counter top surface, which they can then easily add on top, the A40 way.
To give some shape to the above ideas, our sink will have measurements of roughly:
Length: 80 cm (31 inches)
Width: 44 cm (17 inches)
Depth at drain: 22 cm (8,6 inches)
Depth at shallow end: 16 cm (6,3 inches)
Tentative numbers but close to real. Depth and length may increase. The bottom must be steep enough to drain away water properly, but not so steep that items in the sink slide too easily.
This sink would be really big even in a house, and we have a catamaran, with it’s abundance of space, but it’s still no problem to fit this into any 40ish foot cruising boat. The sink is an active part of the counter top surface. It doesn’t take space from it. It just gives it better functionality.
The sink is a much more used utility on a cruising boat than in a house, and the motion means the use is far more challenging too. It really needs to work well, not be an afterthought designed by someone who never did dishes manually. Most designers are men who at best can fill a dish washer. The many modern kitchens where the puny sink is placed far from the counter edge proves this incompetence.
I agree that a sink that’s too small is not good, but based on living aboard with two sinks for 30 years, I prefer that, so I guess we will need to agree to disagree on this one. A lot of how big the a sink is optimal depends on the impact on counter space, I think.
I agree that a cutting board over the sink is a nice feature, but owners can easily fit that to the A40 in any way they want, so I would not worry about it on the standard boat.
I like the flatter raised salon window layout. Looks much more purposeful and is imminently easier to maintain and repair
Totally agree to eliminate the footwell. Our boat has a hard dodger which we have to stoop under to get to the companionway. Absolutely no big deal. We even have to step up over a sill which is at least 12″ higher than the cockpit sole. Again, no big deal and we’re hardly contortionists! Given the many advantages of eliminating the well makes it a no-brainer for my wife and I. Hopefully the design team comes around to this. We’re completely in agreement to replace the step housing with a tubular ladder with solid steps and handholds. Once again, there’s too many advantages to really argue against this change.
Yes, it would be very nice to have more counter space by eliminating the pantry’s fwd bit. But it doesn’t have to be a 100% elimination. A shallow upper cabinet could remain which will make the bast use of the volume in that upper area. I agree with another commenter that a somewhat larger single sink would be preferable to two smaller sinks. The single sink would take up less overall space on the countertop too. Also a great improvement to raise the height of the back splash to 6″ or 8″.
I’m not convinced on the wall opening in the V-berth. Would rather have that closed off and use the wall space for other things. Form the looks of it there’s a handy desk space in the V-berth facing aft. So if the designer’s goal is to have a see-thru for visual com between the V-berth and settee/galley, you’d only really need the lower half of the opening. This would allow some storage/screens/electronics above the opening that is not now possible.
Wow it’s really coming along and I’m sure everyone is appreciating having the opportunity to be able to contribute to the design decisions in such an open manner. Normally, sailors get this opportunity only when we are ordering a custom build and how many of us are rich enough to do that!?. Keep up the great work.
Yes, I agree. We have exactly the same set up on our J/109 and even I, a 71 year old with a chronic inflammation problem, don’t find it a problem.
Let’s get into the salon and forward cabin issues on the next article.
We have a full bridgedeck between the cockpit and the companionway. Our traveller is mounted on it. Having the traveller across there is nice for the skipper, a little less nice for kids going up and down the companionway. But the bridgedeck is no trouble at all to climb over, especially when weighed against the peace of mind of knowing that a swamped cockpit absolutely cannot downflood the cabin, period.
I don’t see any need for a footwell there. John’s proposed improvement really is a better way.
After this update I’m happy to say that my budget manager, aka wife, has got really keen to the point we’ve now registered our interest. However, contrary to what folk seem to be saying we’re quite happy with the arrangement in the Heads as inevitably, we give the toilet and associated area a quick wash with very hot water after each shower. There’s a grate on the deck so subsequent users don’t get wet feet and there’s a dedicated microfibre for wiping the seat. We definitely concur about maximising food preparation surfaces in the galley, though.
Great to hear that it’s working for the two of you both. Thanks for the encouragement.
Thank you Iain (and wife!) for the positive feedback!
Love this design: head, galley, and utility spaces! John, your suggestions make eminent sense – the companionway, ladder, one-piece galley top and fiddles, etc. I think the shared toilet space / shower stall is a reasonable compromise and a practical use of space in a boat this size.
Two comments: 1. Re: electrical master switches / distribution busses, I have no problem with them in the utility bay: a) easier for the owner to wire optional equipment like a fridge compressor or water maker; and b) this might shorten the sum distance (and voltage drop) between said equipment and the house batteries. 2. I would give up the tooth-brush cabinet if this is where the black-water tank must go. BTW, I’m glad Maxime is planning for a gravity-dump holding tank, consistent with A40 simplicity/maintainability!
Yes, I tend to lean toward having the switches in the utility bay, for the same reason you do.
That said, one of the original A40 specifications is that there be large conduits with messengers anywhere wires need to be run, so adding wiring the panel would not be a big deal, although a bit more voltage drop.
And no, the tooth brush cabinet does not impact the black water tanks.
I highly recommend having only one black-water tank, and making it as big as physically possible, even if that intrudes on space that could be used for other things. Everything within a month’s sail of us is a no-discharge zone. Pumpouts are a major time-consuming nuisance, and are charged per tank, not per litre.
Very good advice re holding tanks.
We have been on the Great Lakes now 2 seasons and pump outs are not hard to come by, but often in inconvenient locations: boatyards and marinas keep the good spots for their use. And it can get quite interesting watching boats work their way out of a narrow downwind spot.
Then there is the marina check-out-time which finds boat just getting underway milling around under power waiting for others to clear the pump-out dock. Again, interesting if maneuvering slowly in close quarters and it is a bit windy as boats jockey for position and try to remember who was next in line.
Although this solution is not for everyone, we have been using an Air Head Composting Toilet (more accurately described as a desiccating toilet) for our seasons on the GL’s and have been very happy.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
I had a composting (desiccating) head on a previous boat, and absolutely loved it. No smell, no pumpout headaches, no joker valves, etc. I would consider removing even a brand new marine head and replacing it with a desiccating head on my next boat.
We also use desiccating toilet (I prefer the more descriptive “separating drying toilet”), and will never replace it with a water closet. We do have a normal boat toilet too, in a guest cabin, but it is almost never used. I’ve built ours myself. Easy, and fits the space better. Main ingredients:
– An enclosure with a top lid, in our case a bench built into the boat, to fit a seat, a pee funnel and a solid bucket with a trash bag in it. Having space for two or more is smart, as rotating them now and then gives capacity and more time for drying. We use 3 low and wide buckets and typically last as many months.
– A hose from the pee funnel to a container and/or a drain out of the boat. We have a small automatic pump to normally drain our 10 litre (2,5 gallon) tank overboard. It can also easily be lifted out and carried to a toilet on land. Choose a dark tank material for discretion.
– A computer processor fan and small hose to constantly draw a bit of air from the enclosure to the outside of the boat. It removes all smell and creates a drying air flow over the solids. Ours seems to draw about 0,2 Amps 12V, but constantly… No audible sound.
We live two grownups fulltime aboard and take the solids to the normal trash bin every couple of months. Just a couple of normal small trash bags, up to about 5 kilos/10 pounds of reasonably dry matter each).
– No smell.
– Minimal plumbing.
– No below waterline through hulls.
– No leaks.
– No blockages.
– No maintenance.
– No consumables, apart from toilet paper and trash bags.
– No waiting lines.
– No limits for what can be dropped in there, as long as fluids and solids are kept apart. Baby diapers no problem.
– No tanks to empty, just the inconspicuous and non smelly bags with the normal trash now and then. At sea the solids can be dumped overboard, of course, but then without a plastic bag. We use “compostable” bags, but have limited trust in the reality of that function.
Only downside is that guests need to be educated and convinced to sit down for any errand. Also that if they did it standing up, (guilty until proven innocent) it will not be left unpunished, including on our water closet. No matter how good the aim, tiny droplets will ALWAYS spray out of the toilet, with obvious consequences.
The announced punishment is:
– Prove that you can swim with clothes on,
– at a moment you didn’t expect, freezing temps ok.
Our friends have learned that breaking this rule, no matter how drunk, will make all others cooperate on surprise plans that will entertain them and sober you up! 😀 Not easily forgotten, as it becomes a joke for years. 🙂
I’ve recently met another very experienced sailor who has replaced his traditional Jabsco with a dessicating toilet. Everyone who has tried one assures me the smell isn’t an issue and I can’t think of any other downside. Perhaps the hardware and through hulls needed for a ‘wet’ heads should omitted from the standard build, with just a solid area left in the hull so people can fit a wet loo if they want?
I haven’t yet had the pleasure of trying one myself but they do seem to be becoming popular among the more minimalist blue water sailors the A40 is targeting
Hi Stein and Charlie,
As much as I like my composting toilet and may never go back when we leave the Great Lakes, I am clear they are not for everybody nor for every cruising ground.
Besides, I can see John rolling his eyes and saying “And I have to respond to this also…”
My best, Dick
For those interested, frequent and appreciated AAC contributor Drew Frye wrote a lengthy and excellent piece on composting/desiccating toilets in Practical Sailor (June 2021??) including design considerations for DIY heads.
My best, Dick
How do you know I rolled my eyes and said… Have you hacked my computer camera?
Anyway, you are right, not going there.
I think, it will be easier for someone to go to composting from wet, rather than wet to composting, because of the need for a holding tank, etc. Anyway, making composting standard would, I’m pretty sure, give poor Maxime a huge marketing problem that he just doesn’t need.
Also keep in mind we won’t be fitting the boat with a crappy Jabsco or similar, but rather the super reliable Lavac that Phyllis and I had on the McCurdy and Rhodes—not one blockage in 30 years of live aboard use! The makers of composting heads should send Jabsco a commission on each sale!
I agree that it is easy to go from a traditional marine toilet to a composting, especially if you can deal with the increased height of a composting toilet, without too much trouble: basically, throwing stuff out and capping off the water connections.
And I went from a venerable Baby Blake toilet (which had its entertaining challenges) straight to a Raritan PHII. No experience with Jabsco, but I would put in a good word for Raritan: with a decent maintenance schedule, it served us well for decades, much of which was live-aboard.
My best, Dick
As a husband and wife team we have sailed throughout Europe and spent much time in the Arctic too..we made many changes over the years to our 40 ft sailboat but of the many the one from a comfort / practical point of view was to move the toilet bowl to the corner of the heads such that the seat was 45 degrees to the centre line. Even in the roughest of seas one was held in place by the two sides of the corner walls – we never even broke the lugs holding the seat in place as there was no strain.
I would also add that making the corners of the windows round / curved is sensible from an engineering standpoint remeber why the Comet Aircraft exploded in the early 50s.
I’m not sure that moving the head to a diagonal would make any difference on the A40 given that there is already a bulkhead either side which is going to make it pretty easy to wedge in there. Have a look at the 3D view from above to see what I mean.
We were not quite that well wedged, but close, on the head of our McCurdy and Rhodes, and like you, never broke a seat, despite lots of rough trips and an “everybody sits” rule.
Good point about windows with corners. I had forgotten that stress risers around square windows were part of the cause of the Comet tragedies.
This looks good to me and I am glad that you are not trying to reinvent the wheel on this. A few quick comments from things I noticed:
Are the aft passageways actually wide enough to bend down and get something off a shelf in? When we bend down, we need a much wider area to maneuver in than when standing and working at a standing height. The same goes for working on the engine, if you can’t sit next to it you will be stuck lying on your side and working 1 handed. Since it looks low in the hull, getting the person low enough to work on it could be a challenge, sitting frog legged above the engine and trying to lean forward over your knees is not the easiest but I also don’t want you to raise the engine as that has all sorts of bad performance impacts. I will admit that one thing that really drives me nuts working on engines is when it is hard to transition from the front to the side of the engine but given your need for separating the head, I don’t see much of a way around this here.
You mention various pieces of equipment that could go on shelves. Have you considered noise? Right now it looks like the buyer will need to build a sound insulated compartment for things like the refrigeration, watermaker, etc. if they decide to install them. I suppose heat might also be a consideration in this category.
I have no issues with ladders at companionways. For safety, I am a big believer in having high vertical lips on the side of the steps and cleats covered in non-skid on the steps. Cleats are super common on commercial boats and almost never found on recreational ones in my experience and they allow you to walk down facing either direction safely in quite nasty weather. Of course, part of the reason they are not on most boats may be the boots that companies like Gil sell that have flat soles, I much prefer boots like these: https://grundens.com/products/new-deck-boss-boot.
Has any thought been given at this point as to where the piping and wiring runs will go? I hope repairs and modifications won’t require major surgery or hours of snaking.
The headroom question is interesting and I suspect it may be down to priorities. People who argue that a boat spends 90% of the time at anchor may well feel headroom is non-negotiable whereas people who are only interested in sailing offshore may see it differently. I have owned 1 boat and sailed on a few others that did not have standing headroom for me and I can say for myself that it became a non-negotiable requirement when buying our current boat. Given that it is at 6’3″ right now it would seem a shame if that inch or whatever it was couldn’t be found in the design so that 99th percentile people could stand up with normal shoes on.
Good point on working room.
The passageways in the utility room are 62 cm or about about two feet, so I think all will be good although not perfect in this regard. I guess the way I look at it is that in a boat this size all these things are tradeoffs so making the passageways wider will make the shelves narrower and cut down on storage space.
Probably the best thing will be to build a mock up and then check all tasks like changing an engine filter. If somethings horrible, just cut the offending shelf back a bit.
As to noise, no, not really considered. My thinking is that on a boat this size machinery noise is a given and unavoidable. Even on our McCurdy and Rhodes 56 we knew anytime anything ran. No bad thing if it’s, for example, the water pump. That said, anyone who is worried about this will at least have the space to build a sound enclosure for anything that bugged them, which is more than you can say for most any other boat of this size.
On heat, yes, definitely needs to be planned for, as well as engine ventilation.
On wires, having big conduits with messengers was, and is, part of the core A40 spec, ever since I came up with the boat.
Not sure I would put cleats on the ladder for the reason you state, but treadmaster makes the treads incredibly secure, so that might be a good option. We have that on the J/109 and had it on the decks of the M&R. Love the stuff.
On headroom, I think at least 6′ 3″ or maybe a little more is on the cards for the galley and heads without any big issues. Once we go forward the tradeoffs for insisting on that much headroom get worse. More on that in the next article.
I’m pretty much exactly 6’3″, having just done a 14-month cruise on a boat with a variety of headrooms throughout the boat, I know for sure that I can tolerate less than 6’3″ headroom through most of the boat EXCEPT the galley. For cooking and washing up, if my head touches the headliner at all,… I’m out… (and I sure hope I’m not out, because I absolutely LOVE every detail of this design that has been released so far!)
I think you will be accommodated in the galley, but don’t know for sure, although I think your blanket statement that if your head touches the deck head anywhere in the galley you are out, while certainly your right, is too absolutist to be used as a criteria by the designers. All boats are compromises, particularly smaller ones, so going into the design process with that little flexibility often results in bad boats, and can also result in the wrong boat for our overall needs.
For example, if I had gone into my latest boat buy with that absolute criteria I would have missed out on the best boat for our needs (J/109) and ended up with a boat that was too big for the sailing we want to do (J/120), particularly at my age.
More on that thought here: https://www.morganscloud.com/2019/10/20/buying-a-boat-never-say-never/
thank you for the support! And in addition to John’s answer, yes, see my other comment below: people of your size will be totally comfortable around the galley and at the shower spot, and a little less going forward.
Your thought about commercial vessel ladders got me thinking that we could incorporate the hand rails into a tubular aluminium ladder, just as you see on ships. This would, in turn, let us completely do away with the two little fore and aft bulkheads either side of the ladder.
This in turn would give us amazing engine access with the ladder, and front and side panels removed, without activating your pet peeve (justified) of scrambling back and forth from front to side of engine. Do this right and the engine would be totally exposed in this state, with just a couple of structural struts to brace the forward cockpit sole corners, if required.
If we were really smart we would make sure the ladders could stow in the galley up against the sink, well out of the way, when working on the engine. There could even be a couple of latches at that point in the galley to hold it in place at sea.
Add all this together and we save a bundle in complex carpentry, given that aluminium fabrications of this type are cheap once the prototyping is done, particularly since work like this can be contracted out of the marine industry. Also, big weight savings.
And then if we black anodized it, we could tell everyone its carbon. 🙂 OK, I will stop.
I cannot over-emphasize the importance of easy engine access. I have rejected *so* many boats as “nope, I won’t buy that and you shouldn’t either” because it’s too difficult to get to the parts that might break. Poor engine access hurts resale value on its own, and hinders proper maintenance, which hurts resale value even further. It also makes mechanics issue larger invoices for more hours. Purely on a total-cost-of-ownership basis, it’s very important to get this right, even without considering the cursing and injuries that come with poor access.
The high cockpit sole in this proposed design helps a lot. This idea of using a ladder and removable front & side panels would help a lot, too.
Thanks for the support.
My initial reaction is that I like the idea of a ladder with hand rails built in that otherwise opens up the space. I have always found them to be secure and functional although maybe a bit industrial. I have certainly seen companionways that are secure in the sense of being narrow so you are confined but that don’t have good handgrips which are far worse than a decent sized rail at the right height. One interesting question would be whether opening up those areas was easy to do structurally as often there is a structural bulkhead in the vicinity of the companionway.
Regarding noise and heat, I generally strive for a quiet boat and have so far been pretty successful so I was slightly surprised to hear that you have not done the same. Our refrigeration is just audible in the galley and nowhere else if everything else is truly quiet and the fresh water pump is only a little louder. The engine and windlass can both be heard quite clearly and I think that is just life. I suspect many customers will opt for refrigeration and most compressors I have seen make no provision for a remote condenser installation which was what originally got me thinking about this. So some thought about how to allow the running of refrigerant lines back to the cockpit locker may make sense as that would seem a much better location for the compressor and condenser.
With regards to the alleyway widths I took a quick look through MIL 1472 which is one of the major human factors standards that would be used in this sort of situation. I like this one as it assumes fit people and isn’t overly conservative like another one of the major ones plus it often gives values for different people like it gives strength values in all sorts of positions for 5th percentile female and 95th percentile male so you see the range. I only gave it a quick look but didn’t see a direct answer to the space question although I may have missed it or it may be covered in a different standard, I do use these standards regularly for work but I am not a human factors person and have someone on my team that I rely on for these sorts of things. It did have a few interesting related things:
I also took a minute and measured the amounts that I would need as being 6’3″ and 200lbs, I am a pretty good gauge of a large male. The numbers above seem about right, they would be tight but that is what you want with limited space. I also tried getting something off a shelf to the side and for a low shelf, my minimum was 28″ width in the alley. I was unable to do this straight-on and had to be mostly sideways with some twist at my waist and most of it in my arms. I couldn’t necessarily see what I was grabbing and wouldn’t be able to work on things or lift something heavy but I could grab normal boat stuff off a low shelf with 28″. The standard actually mentions lifting while twisting and recommends a max of 30° and an absolute limit of 45° with a 20% lifting capacity reduction at the 30° position.
Of course, these numbers may well still be too big. So in the end, I do think you are right that a mockup will be the final answer. I have a feeling engine access may need to be sitting working sideways which is not ideal but not the end of the world as long as it isn’t lying on your side.
I realize now that I was far too general in my headroom comment. Yes, it matters where in the boat we are talking about. The areas you mention should be sufficient.
I think the noise thing is often a trade off with accessibility. For example the fridge compressor on our J/109 is quite quiet, but horribly hard to work on because it’s jammed in way aft. So, to me anyway, I would rather see the fridge compressor assessable on one of the shelves in the equipment bay than in a cockpit locker where it would be harder to work on and subjected to a lot of damp. There is also weight distribution to think about so further forward in the equipment bays may be better from that point of view.
Keep in mind that in port the owners will be sleeping forward, so that will help. I also think a sound damping cabinet would drop the noise from the fridge to acceptable levels.
Thanks for the numbers on shelf access. Clearly we won’t be able to make the corridors wide enough to comply with that requirement but what I was thinking we could do is make the front edge of the shelves parallel to the hull, rather than the centre line. This would open up the forward end of the bays to make shelf access easier and would also improve engine access. It would also reduce the temptation to overload this area.
There is a ying and a yang to things that make noise on a boat.
Quiet is really nice, but Alchemy has a fan) for each of the air-cooled Sea Frost refrigeration systems (frig & freezer) right in the living area of the boat. We are used to them cycling on and off, but it is very like living in your kitchen at home with the frig/freezer appliance cycling on and off.
Noise is information. Every now and again, I notice that the fan is running more often than usual (possibly low refrigerant). Or that it has not run in a while. Or the noise quality has changed.
For me to wish to isolate noise completely, I would need to be dead-certain that the noise would never carry important information.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
That’s pretty much how I feel about it. Our fresh water pump on the M&R was on an aluminium bulkhead that seemed to resonate perfectly with it. I regarded this as a feature, not a bug. That said we did turn it off every night at bedtime leaving plenty of pressure in the accumulator tank for a hand wash or whatever.
regarding the shelves, yes, this looks like good modifications! At the moment I would say just as you write on starboard, and, on portside, maybe pushing everything from the shelves to the galley very slightly towards the hull – so that the sea berth (which was slightly narrow anyway) stays rectangular.
Thinking about heat for a minute. I would expect most marine refrigeration units to have a COP of something in the range of 2 although I find it incredibly annoying how most marine refrigeration equipment doesn’t post performance specs. With this COP and assumption of a 10 cubic foot refrigerator with 4″ foam insulation, I would guess that the amount of heat generated will be on the order of 450 BTU in the tropics. This is a little less than having 2 more people sitting down below which isn’t too bad unless it is raining and you have the boat closed up for a while, then it would definitely not be appreciated. The take away probably is that there needs to be a plan for air flow at all times like dorades and not opening ports wherever the refrigeration is installed unless it is a cold weather boat. And I would include a cockpit locker in this if someone installs one there, even if a person won’t get overly hot, the COP will suffer a lot and you will need bigger batteries and more power generation.
Regarding keeping the shelves parallel to the hull, I definitely think that would help with maximizing space and keeping it usable.
Good point on heat from the fridge, but wouldn’t water cooling go a long way to fixing that? I spoke with sea frost some years ago and they strongly recommend water cooling anyway, even for their capillary systems.
The other thought I just had, inspired by your comment, is that the winch pedestals, which are above the utility bays might make a great place for an unobtrusive water trap ventilator.
Bottom line, I really don’t want to see a fridge compressor in a cockpit locker when we have purpose designed utility bays with shelves for such equipment.
Yes, raw water cooling the fridge is definitely a solution to this as it will send 2/3+ of the heat into the water. Also, from an efficiency standpoint, liquid cooling is great as it greatly increases your condenser efficiency. It is worth keeping in mind that pumping water can be energy intensive so these gains can be completely wiped away if not set up right by doing something like creating a large pressure differential on the pump.
That being said, I know of almost no one using liquid cooled refrigeration on their boat at this point and I know several who have switched away but maybe that is just me. I think that the major reason is problems with marine growth fouling the heat exchanger which is not cleanable. I am definitely not an expert in the practical application of this but I do understand the theory so if there is another reason I would certainly be open to hearing about it.
My earlier comments were indeed about air cooled, I didn’t even think of anything else.
Interesting that the exchanger is not easily cleaned on these systems. That would definitely preclude water cooling for me.
I never thought of that problem since I have always had holding plate systems that have separate and easy to clean exchangers.
Eric, it’s hard to follow you through imperial units (for others like me: 450 BTU/h is 130W), but yes on the takeaway!
John, sure building a ventilation through the rope storage bay under the winches is quite straightforward – it’s been done on boats that have exterior storage in the coamings, but I had not remembered, thank you!!
(by the way I don’t readily see the relationship between the exchanger on the seawater side and having a holding plate, maybe a more general evolution to more compact and less maintainable systems? But as you noted elsewhere I’m not in the fridge business!)
Good to hear that the vent in the winch plinths will work. We will also need to think about ventilating the engine space. Many, maybe most, sailboats are poor in this regard which is not good for the engine or a high output alternator. I have done three repowers and in two cases I had to improve ventilation in order to have the engine pass its commissioning testing for warranty.
As to the whole water cooling and/or holding plate thing, it’s complex and very user profile dependant, just another reason I don’t think we should be providing refrigeration as standard.
Just an FYI: I have lived with an air-cooled frig and an air-cooled freezer for getting close to a couple of decades now. They are both BD units from Sea Frost. They both have the option of water cooling. In consult with SF when installing, I felt that the added complications of installation (plumbing and electrical) and of maintenance that comes with water cooling plus the fact that they would demand power to operate the water pump argued for air cooling. I have been and remain happy with this decision.
An added benefit: for those on boats that wander widely and are using different boatyards: you live aboard on the hard regularly, sometimes for a good bit of time. Being able to have refrigeration on the hard is just a large step toward civilized living.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Ps. The heat exchanger does need to be vacuumed clean of dust occasionally.
no, the exact location of the wire conduits has not been thought out, although I think we can reveal that weight centering and the other constraints imply the house bank will be slightly forward of the mast post (and thus close to the windlass).
And just as John says, yes people of 6’3″ (190cm) will be totally comfortable around the galley and at the shower spot, and a little less going forward.
That sounds like a good place for the batteries. And I expect the engine will be small enough that voltage drops would be acceptable for starting with large cabling like 2/0 if the starting is done from there too.
I have a similar shape galley, just a little larger. A few thoughts
Totally agree with you, Alan, re the toe-kick area. I would have it everywhere I could. A real bad-back-saver. I took the sole out of my first live-aboard yacht (28′) and it gave me about a foot of toe room under the cupboards. You can actually use it for stability when cooking when it’s rough (which remeber can happen at anchor too) . But I’m guessing molding the glass might be more awkward and thus more expensive.
And I too am a fan of drawers. I don’t know why so many people are against them. On the other hand, well stowed plastic boxes are really good too, a perfect compromise.
And John, I’d love to see watertight bulkheads around the engine room. Has that been a consideration at all? It need not mean sacrificing the excellent engine accessibility.
But looking fantastic. The boat is shaping up to be a real competitor in the market.
The reason for limiting draws is that they are costly to build.
As to making the engine space watertight, that’s actually very difficult and costly to do because of all the penetrations for ventilation, plumbing, electrical, and exhaust. It would also likely have a negative affect on engine access.
And finally, watertight bulkheads are less effective that might be thought at first glance, particularly on smaller boats: https://www.morganscloud.com/2013/08/19/risk-management-and-watertight-bulkheads/
Interesting suggestions. My thoughts:
As we look at lists like this we need to constantly keep in mind that we are trying to build a boat for somewhere around $250,000 Euros, so we have to really watch out that we don’t saddle the builder with a bunch of expensive details.
Just a reminder that as we think about things we would like to see added and subtracted from the Adventure 40 we need to remember that we are trying to build a great base boat for an unprecedented price without sacrificing quality.
This means that adding a lot of nice to have, but not vital, details is simply not on the cards.
In fact you will note that most of the changes I have suggested will simplify the boat and save money that can be spent on vital stuff like keel strength.
That said, the whole idea here is that the boat is designed to make it easy for owners to customize her to meet their needs and wants.
If you have never read it, or not for a while, it’s well worth having a read though this short chapter that explains the A40 fundamentals:
Consider moving the refrigerator and freezer from under the galley counter, to the inboard side of the counter (below the recycle and trash) and accessed from the inboard side. It would suggest two separate drawers, rather than doors, just like what is shown in the rendering.
Trash and recycle should be on a pull-out shelf below the sink where most of the garbage is created.
Galley faucet should have a pull-out spray head and large enough sink to allow shampooing of hair.
I hear you on how nice those draw fridges are, but there are tradeoffs. See this thread:
The boat has a nice shower with a wandering head, so I’m not sure there is any reason that anyone would shampoo hair in the galley. We never did in 30 years of living aboard with a shower. Also we tried the pull out spray head in the galley and really didn’t like it, so, I think a high U shaped spigot with a pull down head maybe more useful, as suggested by a couple of others.
It must seem that every comment that comes in implies a criticism of your project. So please accept this as an observation and no more. Or at least enjoy the chance to further hone the purity of the details of your “proper yacht”.
I wonder if the startling amount of equipment and machine space your design provides will tempt the unwary to unbalance the boat and to fill it with every kind of equipment and machinery, some of which may or may not come in useful five or ten or even fifteen years into the mission. Such may have been a boon twenty or thirty years ago in a time of almost universal snail like shipping and extreme currency controls. Less so now. Its a wonderful thing to always have the right tools for the job but how many are enough ?
Further I can see this design being very attractive to marina queens handymen. Nothing wrong with them and I certainly have benefited from their expertise but was it really for them that on those long night watches you came up with the Adventure 40 concept ?
I can certainly see, and share, your concern. That said, A40 has less volume aft available to overload than the average modern cruising boat with a fat ass and two aft cabins. And with those boats people tend to overload by filling the areas under the bunks with too much gear and equipment and then dump a lot of stuff on at least one of the bunks. Once they do this, they can get more weight into their boats than would be possible on an A40 not less.
In fact the need to keep the passages clear in the utility and storage cabins should result in even less weight when added to the much finer stern sections.
The point being that people who are going to overload—over half of cruisers, judging by what I see in anchorages—will do just that, no matter how we lay out the A40. But the good news is unless they go totally crazy and fill up the passages with junk—some will, I have seen second heads and two aft cabins stuffed to the deck head—at least they will be able to access all of it and the engine too.
As to the boat being attractive to “marina queens” I doubt it since, due to her narrow beam and fine ends, she has way less volume than most of the modern cruisers being sold of the same overall length. Most of those people are looking for the biggest possible volume in a given overall length, as a quick glance at the adds in one of the mags shows graphically.
So sure, some people will buy an A40 and then grossly overload her by stuffing every available cubic inch of space with gear and equipment. The same people will then add a huge great rib with a filthy great engine on davits and finish the ruination with an arch and a Bimini/cockpit enclosure structure festooned with solar panels and a wind generator to the point that it will be difficult to sail the boat, and unsafe to take her offshore. But there’s not a thing we can do about that, and after all, after they buy the boat, that’s their right, no matter how ill advised.
All we can do about overloading is continue to warn against it, and explain why, as I have done on about half of the A40 articles, including this one, and have been warning against for coming up 20 years generally at AAC—basic seamanship is hard to sell, but I keep trying.
Solar, radar, dingy, bimini, wind turbine, …
Are there any rules of thumb indicating how much is too much to hang aft? e.g.;
My rule of thumb as a performance oriented sailor is absolute minimum, but that’s me, and not that useful since it’s so absolutist.
The good news is that Eric Klem, just a couple of weeks ago, proposed an article that will be about just this, so we should have a better answer than mine in the future. Eric’s a busy guy though, and it’s a complicated article to get as right as he will want it, so it may take some time before we see it.
I like the possibility of a small pipe birth in the port aft storage area.
Our quarter birth is our preferred off watch sleeping area.
I agree with your comments on the single material galley fiddles and higher splash back.
Our companionway ladder clips in place to the side (in the galley). This means it’s still just about usable for the suitably athletic to get up and down. Often engine work takes a little time and it’s nice not to be stuck below the whole time. This may block side engine access though which would be worse.
Just wondering where people who prefer one sink put the just washed up dishes to drain securely while sailing?
I thought I needed enough headroom. Then discovered the boat we liked didn’t have enough. I then discovered as we sailed south and my shoes came off I did have enough after all.
I hear you on it being nice to be able to get in and out when the engine is being worked on. My guess is the same as yours in that the ladder would interfere with access if its service stowage were close enough to the companionway to make that work, but not to worry, we can always get in and out via the hatch in the storage bay. That’s what we do on our J/109 and it should be a lot easier on the A40 since the area is bigger and the shelves will make a reasonable good ladder.
And good point about your experience with headroom. I think that demonstrates something I have noticed over the years: for many of us (most?) things that seem like a huge negative before we go cruising tend to fade in importance once we actually get out there.
And I have exactly the same question for the single sink crowd.
Hi all, has consideration been given for placing the engine forward of the galley? This places one of the heaviest single components directly over the keel where the weight is most useful. Engine beds can be incorporated into the structure holding the keel on saving weight further. A single piece engine box covers the entire engine, much more effective soundproofing than 3 removable panels as under the cockpit. Engine can be worked on without disruption to galley/head/companion way. Yes it will be slightly in the way of the saloon activities and access to the forward cabin but it can be offset slightly to port with no problem.
The middle of the boat has the most carring capacity but other than tankage it is hard to utilize. The engine is close to 200kg so placing it here has merit, many kiwi designers have used this approach when building performance orientated yachts.
The space left under the cockpit would be great for large bulky light weight items such as inflatable dinghy, light weather sails, folding bike etc. John, I really like your ladder idea for easy access to this area.
We have a 12m yacht very similar in shape to the A40. The (single) quarter berth is the place to be on passage, no contest, it would be even better if the motor wasn’t next door.
The space in the back half of the boat is the most useful to humans sailing the boat on passage that’s why everything is grouped around this space. The motor doesn’t need to be here.
I know the exhaust gets long and so does the prop shaft and control cables but with the raised galley sole there is plenty of room plus this arrangement gives great access to all the drive components etc.
At this point that would require a huge redesign of much of boat, so not on the cards.
The other problem is heat, as well as shafting etc. I actually sailed on a Kiwi boat with the engine in the salon (Rainbow II) and it had a lot of drawbacks, not the least of which was you couldn’t put your legs under the salon table because that’s where the engine was.
I also had a boat with the engine under the galley (Fastnet 45) and that was horrible!
Keep in mind that the A40 is not deep enough to put the engine under the cabin sole, even the raised part, so it would be either under the galley or salon table.
I had a Hinckley 38 which “supposedly” was “designed” for the engine under the sole in the main cabin. Of course, they had to add a big bulb sticking out both sides of the hull above the keel to ACTUALLY accommodate said engine.
Charles L Starke
to give more details, yes, what you say is something we considered – in fact there were three whole weeks when we had almost the current design for the hull rig cockpit etc., knew we had the right space inside for the accomodation, but didn’t know how to have it come together – so we tried many things, not all of them wise! (and I’m now all the more happy of how great the solution, in my opinion, is, but the complete view of that will be with the next article!)
A few things came out when trying to push the engine forward:
– access is not as straightforward to organize as you write: you can’t easily just have one big box, as it has to go somewhere when you open, including at sea.
– it’s not just the weight of the engine, but also the weight of the fuel tank: in the current arrangement, we will very likely, baring any yet unidentified problem, place the tank forward of the engine under the raised cabin sole. While if we push the engine forward, the tank has to go backwards, and you lose part or all of what you’ve just gained…
Also, as the pitching moment of inertia thing is quadratic, what matters is taking the masses out of the ends. But then as you move them towards the center, each new meter matters less than the previous one. And anyway you can’t practicaly pile up all the masses just at the center!
l understand this part is yet to come, but hope you will provide a properly comfortable chair at the “boat s office” . Couldn’t see any in the Video.
Great job otherwise!!
I agree that the galley layout is excellent and the suggestions that would expand counter space only serve to improve it. I also support those that suggest a small bank of drawers. There has been some discussion of tap configuration, but I have not seen any consideration of a seawater foot pump? This is one of the most used fixtures on our boat while extended cruising. It would seem that mechanical system considerations include the provision of hot/pressure water…I must admit that it makes no sense to me that ice box refrigeration would not receive the same “built in” consideration. Surely the vast majority of purchasers will want it, and the chosen system can be designed into the boat with compressor space/noise/ventilation/wiring all taken care of. I agree that those wanting extended capacity and/or freeezer can look to the storage bay. I anticipate the rationale for omission falls to cost, but respectfully, I would suggest saving on the standard inclusion of a windvane that would receive periodic use by some, and no use by others. As much as the A40 objective is to be adventure ready upon launch, it seems evident from years and thousands of comments that purchasers will still want/need to make their own choices with respect to sails, electronics, and autopilot/steering, and drogue systems. Believing such, I fully support all construction costs efforts that provide conduits, blanks and hardpoints for purchasers to configure the vessel to their own needs. It is very gratifying to see the project come together, with design adaptation to new styling and thinking…and most importantly remaining focused on simplicity and robust design. Thanks to everyone involved.
Thanks for he thoughts.
Interesting that you use your seawater foot pump. I, on the other hand, have never used one and converted any that came with my boats to a backup for fresh water.
So, in keeping with A40 core principles, better to leave it off the standard boat and let those who want one fit one.
I would also argue that the same applies to a refrigeration compressor. Some will just want a fridge, some fridge and freezer. Some a North American built fridge, others a European one. Some, like me, might even consider holding plates, but not engine drive—yes there are benefits. Some will want air cooled, some water.
And some will want no mechanical fridge or freezer at all: https://www.morganscloud.com/2016/10/04/keeping-things-tasty-tips-for-food-storage-with-no-refrigeration-meal-preparation/
Eric Klem wants the fridge compressor in a cockpit locker to reduce noise and heat, I want it in the equipment bay to improve access and to be more protected from salt water.
Better to make sure all the conduits etc are in place to support a fridge and let people choose their own compressor option. Otherwise poor Maxime will lose his mind trying to come up with a solution to keep everyone happy and then arguing about what he decided on with every potential buyer who thinks they have a better idea.
Heck, we can’t even agree on a sink without a multi-thousand-word debate, can you imagine what would happen when we announced a standard fridge? That way lies madness.
And then what happens if the standard fridge has a problem? Suddenly Maxime is in the fridge fixing business, not the boat building business.
Bottom line, leaving these two out conforms to A40 core principles: https://www.morganscloud.com/2014/08/31/twenty-adventure-40-core-principles/
And I explain, and we debated, why, none of this applies to the vane gear here: https://www.morganscloud.com/2022/03/11/adventure-40-rudder-and-steering-gear/
This does not apply to the A40, so read on only if interested in a different take on sea water access at the galley sink.
In probably hundreds of clean anchorages, we did much of our dish washing with sea water, especially in those areas where we were depending on a watermaker. (Followed by a much easier fresh water clean & rinse using far less domestic water.) An added bonus now that we are in the Great Lakes is that we are pumping fresh water.
I would suggest, not a foot pump, but to “T” a spray nozzle onto one’s deck wash for anchor cleaning. Then, you have a powerful spray for cleaning of pots and dishes. In addition, you have a spray ready-at-hand with a decent amount of range which can augment fighting fires.
It is really nice to have an unlimited amount of water for initial pots and dishes clean-up.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
The video is great and excited to see more. I’m not qualified to comment on the layout. While it sounds like the head will be spacious, would a 6′ 3″ man, with a large posterior, be comfortable on the loo?
Off topic – would it be worthwhile for an insurance company to comment on what they look? Would they consider placing this boat in a lower premium category for risk/repair considerations?
I know the length – 40.8 has been discussed, but there is no way to make it 39.9 for dock/storage fee advantages?
What’s the current ETA? 2024? Is there another round of order-taking coming up?
Great job all, keep it up! This is looking to be a winner.
The head is a good deal bigger than most boats of this size, so I think it should be fine.
I guess we would have to get a bit further with this before an insurance company would be interested in looking at the boat, but when we have a prototype that would be a good idea.
On length, that comes up from time to time, but remember that 40.8 does not include the bow sprit or vane gear, so to get the boat under 39.9 we would need to make her over meter shorter, which would wreck the design.
As to ETA and order taking, those are questions for Maxime, although I know he is working on both.
John my limited experience with marinas is that the hull length stated in the brochure is what the footage fee is based on. Thanks for the reply
thank you for the kind words!
On insurance companies, yes of course in an ideal world they would be a primary source of input. More than a year ago I tried to ask, and quickly understood it was a loss of time, at least at this stage.
On length, if it were a matter of 5 cms then we would have “twisted” things, but it’s more than that. Similarly, keeping the hull length under 12 meters can slightly reduce certification costs, but we preferred to stay at 12.45 meters.
2024 would be for a prototype only.
I insert here the answer to Brandon’s comment below, because these points work together: yes the US$285k cited by John (before tax and with no fancy equipment), at today’s exchange rate (things will be done in euros…), are the area we want to reach – although it’s a challenge.
And, regarding your last question: for this challenge to be met AND high quality be achieved, we’ll have to demonstrate to all participants and suppliers (there are many!) that this really is a large series. The GoFundMe campaign is an excellent first hint – thank you all again!! But then, when we’ll have finished presenting the work done with Vincent and team and on the keel, we’ll have to go one step further. So yes, another round, although its details are still to be defined!
I know it’s premature, as the design is still in flux and a builder hasn’t been chosen yet, but I’m curious on the current estimated retail pricing. Is that something Maxime can share? I know the original target was $250k, but that was ten years ago. With inflation that’s closer to $320k today, is that the target?
Actually the original target was US$200k and that was adjusted for inflation in 2021 to US$250k. That was two years ago, so we will have to add in the inflation in boat building since them. Wild guess: US$285k
I do know that Maxime is working on this, but don’t know what numbers he is getting, so that’s just my guess.
Thanks John! One final bit of clarification, the price target was set as “ready to go,” I know that the sails are intended to be “included” by the builder, but rather set(s) that are recommended are to be bought separately. Does that envisioned “ready to go” price include the (estimated cost, of course) sails, or no? Either way, if he can get the price in that ballpark that’s going to be great! Thanks again, and I’ll keep following along with excitement.
We originally thought the sails should be included, but then decided people would want different types, so deleted them from the base boat.
Anyway, it does not make any difference since I’m sure Maxime would not charge you for sails you are not getting.
Bottom line, we are speculating here, so better to wait until Maxime has got some costs together.
One thing I can say, the A40 will be way less expensive than even cheaply built boats of the same displacement given we are saving a bunch of money on both complications and marketing.
For example, I would estimate that when you buy a Beneteau for say $300K you are getting a $120k boat + $50k of foo-foo features like twin wheels and rudders+$130K to cover marketing, advertising, and dealer margins.
All Maxime will be charging you for is a quality boat with just what you need and a fair profit.
Also a way better value since you won’t be burning all that marketing expense the day you raise the sails for the first time.
More on how this works: https://www.morganscloud.com/2015/07/25/unbundling-the-adventure-40/
You don’t have to convince me! What you say about the sails makes perfect sense. Just waiting with bated breath on all of the details! Just need to plan how big of a coin hoard I need socked away so I can buy one in a few years.
thank you for the enthusiasm! On price targets, see my answer to Calvin just above.
Hi, Is there a launch date and price?
No, not yet. We hope to know more in the next few months, but here is a lot more work to go though before we can nail stuff like that down.
Love the cutter rig and U-shaped galley! As a couple who has converted one of our (stupid) aft quarter berths into a “garage” that includes our Victron controls for the lithium bank, inverter, an auxiliary freezer/fridge, water maker controls, and various equipment, we couldn’t agree more that having two aft cabins is an absolutely impractical use of space for a cruising couple or small family. Keep going, looks great! We’ll start saving our pennies.
Great endorsement, thank you. Twin aft cabins look great…until you actually get out there.
thank you for the endorsement and encouragement!!
Steps vs. Ladder and Old Guys.
Your buyers are not going to be all youngsters (most will be >50), and as we age knees go bad. Maybe up and down the steps is just tiring at first, and eventually quite difficult or impossible. And it’s not what you can do when you buy the boat, it is what you will feel like 10-15 years later. Many (most) boats suffer from what I call “tall step disease.”
A standard step is 7 1/2 inches. Many on boats are higher to save space.
Ladders are typically 16 inches. OK if you have good knees, the ladder is not leaning, and you have two free hands to pull on the rungs. I would turn down any boat with a companionway ladder step that is over 7 1/2 inches, unless I could see an easy way to replace the ladder, and then I would count that against the purchase price.
I’ve added steps or replaced ladders on every boat I have owned, starting when I was in my 20s. Maybe just me, my bad knee, and my wife’s bad knee. But every “mature” visitor has complimented the changes. Some ofthose bad knees start pretty young (my injury happened in college). But I would consider and older or tired person’s ergonomics. Few designers do.
And I agree that ladders are not dangerous. Certainly no more so than stairs, and in a seaway both depend on good railings.
That has not been my experience. I think you are thinking ladders like a builders ladder, this is not what I’m suggesting. For example we are talking wide treads and proper rails so you are not putting hands on the treads. Phyllis and I lived happily with this for 30 years aboard, see photo of our ladder in the article. And, by the way, I have very bad knees, five years of sailmaking and 30 years of running will do that! I do agree that the treads should not be too far apart, but even that gets way easier if you have good hand holds to support part of your weight.
And Eric made this idea even better by suggesting integrated rails as you see on commercial ship ladders.
I think the changes suggested for the galley, stair and cockpit floor are good. I also like the improve flat glass with radius corners for more strength.
I really like this suggestion because insurers generally require this capability if the boat is going offshore, and failures have caused abandonment etc.
I don’t know the boat as well as many, but where and how big are the battery banks? Are the well ventilated and away from the engine compartment and well protected from outside. Is there a dedicated and ample Electrical Equipment wall that is well ventilated and has ready access to ships panel, the engine compartment and likely solar locations?
How big is it? The electrical equipment needed is quite extensive.
Is there a out of sight, easy to run, internal cable route from the mast to the nav station, electrical panel, cockpit, and forward, etc.?
I have one comment about the forward of galley layout. We seem to have a lot of discussion about where to locate steps in this boat. I think I know why the step down from the galley to the settee and dining was located there, but I think it should be moved forward to the aft edge of the rear facing dinette seat to align with the forward edge of the settee. This would allow better keel reinforcement, make the cabin more integrated with the galley, reduce steps up and down, and make the starboard settee more useful. I see that there are drawers and storage that would be lost, but there could also be more long term (batteries ?) or storage underfoot.
I do not know if there is significantly less headroom as your move forward, or if the step is located there to reduce a headroom problem, but the floor layout begs to be more integrated with the galley.
See the next interior arrangement article, and the comments, for why the step is where it is and the tradeoffs, of which there are many, including ones you mention. I I also discuss things like threaded inserts.
That said, cabin sole height will not interfere with keel strength. The latter will always take priority: https://www.morganscloud.com/2022/06/08/adventure-40-keel-strength-and-grounding-resistance/
Hi John and Maxime,
A very quick comment/suggestion about windlass controls. My current 36′ sailboat has a wand on a cable. The cable starts from the cockpit and is long enough to walk it out to the bow. This is the usual mode when an experienced couple are sailing together. But if only one experienced person is available to anchor, everything can be done from the helm with this configuration. I’ve not seen this on any other boat but it’s actually a great idea. Two previous owners spent 25+ years at various anchorages in Europe and North/Central America and it proved to be a good solution. To avoid the cable being a trip hazard I just run it out over the cabin top where it won’t slip onto the deck because the rails and dorade boxes stop it from doing so.
Rob on Mayero 2
many thanks for this suggestion!! Having no experience with longer-than-usual control cables it’s not easy to visualize the tradeoff, but it does sound like this could be a solution in case we can find no reliable-affordable wireless control!