Members' Online Book: Adventure 40, Chapter 22 of 22

Setting The Adventure 40 Free

jhh5_104618-edit

My last update was back in June and it didn’t contain a lot of great news, in that Erik had missed his self-imposed deadline of March to complete the plans and specifications to the point that the prospective builder could quote on the project.

Fast forward to October when I received an email from Erik with the following news:

I have not visited the yard, not enough progress was made on my side of the project to justify another meeting with them.

This despite the fact that at the time he was visiting the same country the yard was located in.

The Reality

No, I was not best pleased. Having said that, before we get too hot under the collar, we all need to keep in mind that to date Erik is not being paid.

On the other hand, we also need to recognize the reality: we have not published anything meaningful about the Adventure 40 since the Interior Design post of November 2014—the last time I received anything from Erik that was in complete-enough form to write about.

And at the same time I got the above news from Erik, I also learned that he is planning an Open 60 Vendee Globe campaign for 2020, a development that made me doubt that he will have time for the Adventure 40 going forward—most Vendee Globe skippers lives’ are dominated for years before arriving on the starting line by the search for sponsors, training, and boat preparation.

More Issues

Further, you will remember that back in May I stated that I did not want to end up managing this project. But nonetheless, that’s what started to happen.

For example, Erik and I were getting into some significant differences of opinion about what was and was not appropriate gear and construction techniques for the boat, to the point that these discussions were cutting into the time I should have spent attending to my real job: creating and editing the best content I can for the members of this site who pay my salary.

No Way Forward?

All of this kicked me into a lot of thinking about this project that is now nearly five years old and that I have invested hundreds of hours of time and a boatload of creativity on.

Frankly, my first inclination was to simply say screw it, take all the Adventure 40 chapters down, and get on with my life and running this site…and I may still do that.

But maybe there’s a better way.

A New Model

What I’m thinking is to make all of the Adventure 40 posts available to anyone who wants to base a boat on them, with:

  • No licensing fee for using our specification.
  • No equity in a company that builds the boat.
  • No licensing fee for calling the boat the Adventure 40.

Zero, zip, nada.

Sweet Deal

And yes, this is a pretty sweet deal. For absolutely free, a building company gets:

  • A specification for a boat based on my experience, that has been improved and battle-hardened by hundreds of comments.
  • A known viable market for said boat. (Yes, there are people waiting in the wings who say they are ready to make a deposit.)
  • A framework for a company that will be able to build this boat at a profit.

Sweet Resource

Even if a person or company is not interested in building an Adventure 40, there’s value here as a specification to:

  • Measure prospective secondhand boats against.
  • Provide ideas while designing larger and more complex boats or even smaller and even simpler ones.
  • Provide a framework for those building their own boat.
  • Provide ideas and a gear list for those refitting an older boat.

Still Copyrighted

That said, I do need to make clear that all of my writing remains copyrighted with all rights reserved. You can use it to build a boat, but you can’t copy it and publish it in any way without my express written permission. And yes, you will still need to be a member to read most of it, or to comment.

Unbundled

Of course, like open source software, all of this will be provided on an as-is basis: you get to use it all, but that’s all you get.

So if a company or an individual building the boat wants me to, for example:

  • Clarify or explain a point.
  • Expand on a chapter in more detail.
  • Advise on a design decision.
  • Visit the prototype and advise on changes.
  • Advise on marketing or sales.
  • Take a piss…oops, I mean, anything else…

I will charge for my time and expenses. Not only is this fair to me, it’s also fair to you, the members of Attainable Adventure Cruising, since you will no longer be subsidizing my work on the Adventure 40.

Of course, AAC members will still be able to comment and ask questions on this Online Book.

And, if you think about it, this is totally in keeping with the Adventure 40 unbundling core principle.

I’m a Reporter Only

That said, I will continue to write about developments with the Adventure 40 without charging anyone, but as an unbiased reporter, not as a promotor of the boat, and only if I think that the article will be of interest to the membership.

And better still, now that I have no financial interest—not even a nebulous future one, as I did before (possible royalty)—in the Adventure 40, I can truly be unbiased, both in fact and in appearance.

The Door is Open

Set up this way, if anyone out there is fed up with waiting for Erik to produce a boat—he still swears he’s going to—they are perfectly free to hire another designer and start putting a boat together based on our specification.

Possible Designers

By the way, if it were me I would go talk to Ed Joy or Dave Pedrick.

Ed, because I just love the work he did when working for Chuck Paine, and Dave, because he did a really cool job of taking the older McCurdy and Rhodes designed Navy 44 and bringing it up to date without screwing it up, at least as far as I can see.

I digress.

Transparency

One more thing while I’m writing about my new direction. I hereby warn everyone involved in the Adventure 40 not to give me any information that they don’t want to see published—I will not be bound by any requests for confidentiality or non-disclosure.

I have always thought that the whole project should be totally open, warts and all, but now I’m making that official.

The only secret I’m still keeping is the identity of Erik’s prospective builder (even though I have always thought that keeping them in the shadows was a mistake) because I gave that undertaking before publishing this post.

Two Issues

Of course there are at least two 800 pound gorillas in the room:

Straying From The Straight and Narrow

The first is, what happens if someone builds a boat that does not meet the Adventure 40 specification as we created it on this site? For example with:

  • Cheaper, lower quality gear than we specified here;
  • An iron keel;
  • A windlass that does not meet this specification (doesn’t have to be this particular windlass, just must meet the spec.);
  • Without an extensive and open prototyping process, including sailing by experienced independent voyagers.

Or anything else that contravenes this Online Book or the Adventure 40 Core Principles.

I will call them out in a post. And nope, there will be no compromising. Great boats are not created by compromise, they are created by vision and sticking with that vision.

Sure a builder can call a junk boat the Adventure 40, but how many will they sell after I, and all the people here in the AAC readership who have given so much in the comments, call them out on it?

Erik’s Drawings

The other issue is what to do about Erik’s drawings that grace many of the chapters. I initially told Erik I would remove them. But on reflection, I hope he will let us leave them up as they illustrate many of the boat’s features. This should be a win for him since people will tend to associate the Adventure 40 with the boat he is designing.

Of course, each of his drawings will continue to carry his copyright and I will edit chapters that contain his drawings to make clear that I’m writing about the “Erik de Jong Adventure 40”.

But if he does decide to demand that I take said drawings down, no big thing. Pretty much all of the specification is AAC intellectual property. Erik then drew a boat from that.

His design is what would be called in the software industry a derivative work: undeniably his, but conferring no claim on the basic work.

A Future?

So at this point you are probably saying, “All well and good, John, but that’s the end of the Adventure 40.” Well, maybe, but maybe not.

Two entrepreneurs have come forward already in response to my putting the Adventure 40 opportunity out there in two previous posts. One has just dropped out, but the other is still raring to go and is talking of:

  • Crowd funding campaign(s).
  • A dedicated A40 web site.
  • A big push on social media.
  • Hunting down one or more angel investors.
  • And all kinds of groovy things, to quote Arlo Guthrie.

This guy is some-keen and full of energy.

At this point said entrepreneur—let’s call him Kip…because that’s his name—is planning to work with Erik to build an Adventure 40.

By the way, if you would like to help Kip and/or Erik to build a boat, in any way at all, say so in the comments and I’m sure one or both of them will respond. No, please don’t write to me, I’m no longer playing matchmaker either.

That said, if you don’t wish to expose your email address in the comments, I’m happy to pass it on to whoever you designate in a comment.

The List

And that brings me to one final point: About 375 of you have signed up as interested in buying an Adventure 40 and several more people add their names every week. While I would certainly never give that list to anyone else, no matter their claims about building a boat, what I will do is send out a mailing to inform you of any new contenders or significant developments. After that, it’s up to you.

Conclusion

I know this new direction might come as a shock and even a disappointment to many of you but, after much thought, I do think it’s the best way forward and one that will result in a better boat in the long run. And, anyway, the old model was clearly broken.

It will take me a couple of months to edit this Online Book to reflect this new direction as I’m busy on other projects at the moment and will be traveling over Christmas.

Further Reading

Comments

If you have questions or suggestions or, best of all, want to help make the Adventure 40 happen, please leave a comment.

Book Chapter Navigation:
<< Adventure 40 June Progress Report

Enjoyed this article? Please share:

Meet the Author

John

John was born and brought up in Bermuda and started sailing as a child, racing locally and offshore before turning to cruising. He has sailed over 100,000 miles, most of it on his McCurdy & Rhodes 56, Morgan's Cloud, including eight ocean races to Bermuda, culminating in winning his class twice in the Newport Bermuda Race. He has skippered a series of voyages in the North Atlantic, the majority of which have been to the high latitudes. John has been helping others go voyaging by sharing his experience for twenty years, first in yachting magazines and, for the last 12 years, as co-editor/publisher of AAC.

Comments on this entry are closed.

  • Myles Dec 2, 2016, 11:47 am

    Interesting. I’ll need to think more about this before I comment.

  • Oscar Kramer Dec 2, 2016, 11:50 am

    John,
    Sorry to hear about the new developments but I think this new “open source” model is workable. I have been involved in an open source software project for many years that has succeeded in making money for companies involved. You mentioned wanting to get paid to fill in gaps in the spec or to clarify a point. Absolutely. That’s how our company (and other’s that contribute) have made money. But, any information you provide must go into the “open-source” knowledge pool. The same goes for other professionals that contribute design ideas and details, paid or not. The knowledge pool grows. The one sticky point though is that this model requires “moderators” that can review and either accept or reject contributions. That’s a bit of work and should be supported financially through ongoing member contributions (or the builder?).

    • John Dec 2, 2016, 12:00 pm

      Hi Oscar,

      Hum, I think we can only go so far with the Open Source Software metaphor. I’m in no way suggesting that the design or specification be crowd sourced or that others can modify it.

      As to moderation, we already have that: me. The model will stay the same in that if people want to make suggestions to modify the specification, that’s great, but they would continue to do that here in the form of a comment.

      On the other hand, if someone takes the specification and changes it, and then builds a boat, it would be like a fork in open source software. Might be great, but it would not be the Adventure 40, and I would call them out if they called it so.

  • David e Bell Dec 2, 2016, 12:00 pm

    While I can’t imagine owning an Adventure 40, I would be interested in using my various skills to help move the project forward.

    • John Dec 3, 2016, 10:38 am

      Hi David,

      Great, would you like me to pass your email along to Kip?

  • Richard Dykiel Dec 2, 2016, 4:30 pm

    Sigh…. Would it be worth starting a topic about current production boats that could be considered as “best second choice” compared to an A40? That’s for people that won’t be able to wait for an A40. And, because they might be more expensive than the A40, discuss the production boats that are voyaging-capable in the 34-40ft range?

  • Jo Dec 2, 2016, 8:09 pm

    John,

    No matter how this project goes on, I want to thank you profoundly for the work you’ve published on the subject. To me it made me realise many things about my needs and wants in a cruising boat and I gave me valuable input on the many topics I had no clue about.

    As life happens, just when I was ready to make commit to the Adventure 40, a used semi-custom 44ft-er in aluminium from a German designer appeared on the market, that hit many of your principles straight on, down to the massively over-engineered winches and Blake Toilet. Even with the size, the inside is more of a wide 34ft boat and sleeps just 5, one of them in the saloon. The experience this year showed, it is set up to single-hand it comfortably despite its size.

    Well, stupid things happen and I fell in love. As the boat gave a very consistent and honest impression even at close inspection, I took the plunge.

    Many thanks to you, Colin and all the other posters here for your work. You helped me a lot and kept me from doing even more stupid things.

    • John Dec 3, 2016, 10:34 am

      Hi Jo,

      Thank you so much. Your comment alone makes the work worth while and I’m hoping others will use the Adventure 40 as a framework in selecting a boat to take care of them at sea, just as you have.

  • Erik de Jong Dec 2, 2016, 9:57 pm

    I very much regret that John and I are not continuing on this project together. Unfortunately, a lot has happened in my life, followed by some differences of opinion between John and myself. Now I am in the position to work on the design full time.

    Kip and I have been working together for a few weeks to make the boat happen. Kip has taken the role of project manager and I’m focusing on wrapping up the design. John has decided that he wants out, Kip and I regret this, but respect John’s wish.

    • John Dec 3, 2016, 10:33 am

      Hi Erik,

      Thanks for coming up, I hope your presence in the comments will continue. To be frank, one of the things that really worried me is that your participation here, even when you were ashore and had internet, had dropped off a lot from the early days.

      Just to clarify, I’m not leaving the Adventure 40, I will continue to write about the boat(s). I’m just removing myself from direct participation in the design and build of the boat you are working on.

      In addition I’m still available as a consultant to you and Kip should you decide that you have a task that needs doing that would fit my skills and experience. And further, as I have already told Kip, I’m willing to spot you guys several hours of my time until you get financing in place and can pay for it.

      A question: As I say in the post above, I have changed my mind on the desirability of removing your drawings from the chapters here. Are you OK with leaving them up, under the terms I outline above, and with links to whatever web site you and Kip put together?

  • Stein Varjord Dec 3, 2016, 11:54 am

    Hi John

    To make anything happen, one needs to make choices / decisions. To make anything good, one needs to change ones mind about many of those decisions, a lot of times. This post might, for some readers, look like bad news, but I actually think it’s rather pointing towards promising development.

    It proves John does indeed have the ability to change his mind, even on painful topics, if that seems to be the right choice. To me, it looks like a wise move. It may create clarity and motivation for those who need to make things happen. Freedom is scary, but feels great and promotes progress. It may also be a healthier division of roles in the project, liberating John too, to think creatively rather than defensively. Making it easier to keep a birds wiew, noticing details, seing real priorities and pointing them out clearly.

    I think there should still be some financial benefit to John and this site for the creation of the project and linking it to an actual market, even specific customers. That might be just it: The list of interested people. Each of them actually paying a boat could release an amount to AAC / John. The fee could be similar to the marketing cost it would normally take to make a sale….?

    • John Dec 4, 2016, 9:25 am

      Hi Stein,

      I think that’s a very good analysis of the benefits.

      As to your revenue idea, that was actually the original model, but the trouble with it is that if puts me in the de facto position of being a salesman for a particular boat. And that, in turn, makes it more difficult for me to write about the boat really objectively, particularly in the area of pointing out deviations from the original specification.

      So, although it will be less lucrative, I think I prefer this model. That said, I reserve the right to, as you suggest is wise, change my mind.

  • Kip Dec 3, 2016, 4:15 pm

    I would like to introduce myself to the AAC community and say that I am excited to be working on the project! Reading about the Adventure 40 on morganscloud.com has really inspired me, and I want to create the most capable cruising boat out there.

    Erik and I have put our heads together, and with some guidance from John we have come up with a plan that will ensure we are on track and that we have a prototype sailing as soon as we can secure funding. This project wouldn’t have happened without the help of AAC and it’s readership and for that we are incredibly thankful. John’s experience will be very helpful in the future so this will likely not be the last that you hear about the boat.

    I would like to invite anybody who is interested in helping with the project or that has any questions to contact me at offshoresailboats@gmail.com. If you are thinking about purchasing a boat feel free to get in touch as well.

    Kip

    • John Dec 4, 2016, 9:48 am

      Hi Kip,

      Thanks for coming up, I hope you will be a regular here. As I said to Erik, one of the issues I had with the way things were going was his recent lack of participation in the comments, even when he was ashore. Yes, said participation can be tough when a design you have sweated over is criticized (I should know), and time consuming too, but I think that participating here and not giving in to the understandable temptation to circle the wagons in a web site that you and Erik control will be a vital part of your road to success. (Note I’m not saying you would do that, just suggesting that it would not be a good idea.)

      As we agreed on the phone, total transparency is vital.

      Talking of which, I think it’s way past time for the prospective builder to come out of the shadows. The desire to remain anonymous all this time is not doing their credibility as an Adventure 40 builder any good at all.

      One point we need to sort out soon is whether or not Erik (and you) are willing to see his drawings continue to be part of this online book under the terms I list above. I will need a solid answer on that within a week, otherwise I will take them down, which I think would be a pity for all concerned.

      Please advise on both those points.

    • Jean-François Eeman Dec 5, 2016, 3:29 pm

      Hi Kip,

      I wish you all the best with your involvement in the project.

      Maybe this will sound blunt to you : You wish to introduce yourself to the AC Community but you do not say who you are… nor what you are up to…

      You suggest everybody who is willing in helping the project should write you.
      I guess a lot of people are or would be.
      But does it not sound fair to you we should know to whom we are writing ?
      Who are we (consdering) helping ?
      To whom do we write we are thinking about purchasing a boat ?

      If you or others think my remark is irrelevant I’ll be happy to hear it

      Jean-François EEMAN

      • Kip Dec 5, 2016, 8:42 pm

        Jean-Francois,

        As John has mentioned in his post I am an entrepreneur who will be taking the role of project management over for Erik so he can focus fully on his designs. While I like to maintain my privacy online I can tell you a little about myself:

        I live in the SF Bay Area and have close ties to silicon valley, and a very good understanding of how to properly raise capital through the channels available here. I have already started one sailing related business, where I learned a lot about prototype development. I have been a competitive dinghy racer for 7 years and when I was captain of my colleges sailing team we raised close to $20,000 through crowdfunding so I am familiar with the platform.

        Like many of us here I dream of leaving shore life and cruising full time for an extended period, and while I was researching boats in which I could do that I came across this website. I thought that a boat such as the one described here would be the ideal fit for me and, hearing that he needed help, got in touch with John.

        • Stein Varjord Dec 5, 2016, 9:14 pm

          Hi KIp.

          Thanks! Nice to get a “face” for the name. 🙂 What you say indicates that you are a good match to help the project move forward. It will be fun to watch. As mentioned by others, I think it would be smart to keep feeding this site with information as much as possible. Most likely most of the customers, for the first few years at least, are already here. It’s amazing, of course, to have a market waiting for you, even ready to put down money, crowdfunding or otherwise, but it’s also a challenge:

          Your dealings before there are any boats, might mean just as much for your credibility as what you do when boats start hitting the water. In this, I firmly believe in openness whenever possible. I think it’s smart to make an agenda on when to present news. From pro racing I learned a lot: Off season, all sponsors got an email with something interesting once a month. In season they got an email once a week. During events they got one every day or more. We also had a lot of other marketing routines, but the potential buyers on this site have a position that emotionally resembles sponsors. Keeping the issue alive with frequent small (but always interesting) drips of info, will fuel enthusiasm and loyalty.

          A very powerful tool to boost interest, enthusiasm and loyalty is this simpel rule from media: Make it personal. People like to know about people, not things. That is true even for sailing nerds. 🙂 I don’t mean that you should tel about your private lives, but I do think you should try to incorporate you as individuals in the story of the project towards the Adventure 40. Pictures with people are better than pictures without people. Stories just as much so. To make the reader have feelings, the people in the story must have feelings. Sounds mushy, but it’s truth I’ve seen proven so many times that I don’t consider it debatable. 🙂

          • John Dec 6, 2016, 12:09 pm

            Hi Stein,

            I think that’s great advice, I sincerely hope that Kip and Erik will take it.

          • Kip Dec 6, 2016, 3:36 pm

            Stein,

            Thanks for the advice and encouragement! I will be a presence on this forum in the future so I’m sure you all will get a better “picture” of me through continuing comments. You sound like you have done some really exciting sailing in the Pro circuit. I am also trying to get more serious with my racing, and want to compete in many of the California Offshore regattas, including a TransPac! I really enjoy the methodical approach to offshore sailing as compared to the frantic nature of small boats.

            Kip

            PS. I got your email but it may take me some time to get back to you. I like to give a thought out response to every email and I have gotten many many emails from AAC readers in the last couple of days.

        • Robert B Dec 6, 2016, 4:52 pm

          Hi Kip – Would you mind sharing a little more about your experience in project management and endeavors like the A40 project? I think that’s what J-F was getting at. “Entrepeneur” is a bit ambiguous.

          Is there a formal business plan? Do you know what you are planning to offer an investor or a crowd funder?

          Robert

    • John Dec 6, 2016, 12:28 pm

      Hi Kip,

      I need to say that the way you are participating, or rather not participating in the discussion is starting to worry me big time.

      Several of our very smart commenters, including a boat builder with an enviable record of success, have tried to interact with you, and so far all we have from you and Erik is a couple of generic sounding comments that are not true personal interactions and are not answering people’s concerns.

      And it’s important to realize that though only a few have commented, many are watching.

      This is a critical moment in your journey to build the Adventure 40. One where you must establish rapport and trust with those interested in the boat, and frankly I think you are blowing it, or at least on the verge of doing so.

      There are critical questions that have been asked—builder, Erik’s drawings, financing—and even if you don’t yet have the answers you need to interact, preferably personally, with each of those who have commented.

      As Stein and Jean-François point out, now is your chance to connect. If you don’t do that, you won’t sell any boats, even if you build the best boat in the world.

      The point being that the Adventure 40 has got to the point she has with people seriously interested because people feel they know (warts and all) and can communicate with the person who conceived the boat: me. You need to continue that tradition, starting here and now.

      • Kip Dec 7, 2016, 4:13 pm

        John,

        These are valid concerns and as they are very serious to the future of our business, not something that Erik or I take lightly. However I do have a life outside of the Adventure 40 and often do volunteer work over the weekends at a local sailing center, so it seems a bit unreasonable to expect me to be on this website 24/7. As you say it is a critical moment in our journey, and that is why Erik and I are focusing very hard on organizing ourselves and developing a realistic and feasible business plan. That is not something that happens overnight, and at this point we have only been working together for a little over a week.

        As for revealing the identity of the builder that Erik has been in contact with, that would just be bad business. Especially since we are reviewing all our options and have not decided to go with any specific builder as of yet. We will likely not decide on a builder until the designs are finished and we can get a price quote from prospective companies. Erik is hard at work on the designs but having to take time away from designing to comment will slow him down considerably. He says that it is fine to leave his drawings up in their current format.

        I want to be clear that we are not “circling the wagons” and we are not trying to take readership away or “split” the community here. Our door is always open and anybody is welcome to contact us for any reason related to our boats, our mission, financing, or just to talk sailing :).

        Kip
        offshoresailboats@gmail.com

        • John Dec 7, 2016, 5:11 pm

          Hi Kip,

          Thanks for coming up. I’m hugely relieved to hear that I was wrong in my assumption that you guys were circling the wagons and splitting.

          On comments and your time. These things are all about priorities, and one thing I can share with you after 10 years in this business, is that there is no more important use of your Adventure 40 related time that being accessible here in the comments to those who will make or break your company.

          And if you were busy over the weekend, a one line comment explaining that and promising to answer concerns on a given day would have worked fine, but silence doesn’t.

          Yea, being that accessible is tough…welcome to 2016, it’s the way of the world we live in. Your generation particularly just won’t tolerate it any other way. That’s why the very first thing I do in the morning, every morning a good 350 days a year is answer the comments here.

          That said, even though I have interacted with every person that commented on this post, it has not taken me more than a couple of hours, total. Surely it would have been worth that much of you and Erik’s time not to leave us all wondering?

          One more thing. Why on earth would revealing the prospective builder be bad business? You don’t have to make a commitment. You could just say “we are talking to”… You yourself said in one of our telephone chats that “my generation demand transparency” and now frankly you are sounding like some corporate boomer stuffed shirt.

          The bottom line is you and Erik can’t just hand this boat down from on high. The secret to building the A40 community has always been making everyone feel part of it. Don’t try and change that now, such a cultural shift won’t end well.

          Please pass on my thanks to Erik for letting us keep his drawings up.

  • Bruce Dec 4, 2016, 3:54 am

    If anyone wants to go sailing now at a cheaper price in a boat which I believe is comparable to the Adventure 40 in a lot of ways but fully equipped, see the Alan Payne Skookum Yacht advertisement on this site.

  • Rob Hamilton Dec 5, 2016, 3:57 am

    Hi John,
    It seems to me that things have settled into a state that more naturally reflects the aspirations of all the people involved in the project and this can only be a positive move. It seemed to me that your primary purpose was always to make a contribution by focusing attention on the core values and principles on what a safe and comfortable sailboat for a realistic budget should be. As a follower of the project I was never entirely sure what Erik’s motivation in the project was. To not have a financial reward incentive is fine in the initial stages when everybody is sharing their common passion, but as the project matures and it starts demanding serious time and effort to execute it there needs to be a strong motivation to prioritise it. Without reward it is hard to imagine how there could be an expectation of accountability on deliverables such as adherence to timelines.
    It seems that not only has the Adventure 40 been set free to be driven by the interests of stakeholders involved, but it has also set you free to comment freely and monitor the integrity of the project and hold it accountable to the founding principles without the need to consider the interests of the stakeholders in the comment.
    I believe the considerable interest shown in the project was never due to design, size, builder or even a price point, but a buy in to the core principles. As long as this “constitution” is in place and there is accountability to it the project will be able to take shape around it with the flexibility of interest that could lead to production boats on the water.
    All Hail to the originator who has shown such keen insight expressed with such integrity of purpose, clarity and eloquence. I hope the importance of adherence to the core principles is clearly understood or we will all be reflecting in future on what could have been. I will probably never own an Adventure 40, but I already own a sound perspective on what to look for in a boat that will be a safe and comfortable home. For this I am profoundly thankful.

    • John Dec 5, 2016, 9:34 am

      Hi Rob,

      Thanks for the kind words, much appreciated. I also think you did a great job of summing up the benefits of the new plan.

      One small point, it is Erik De Jong who is designing a boat to the A40 spec, not Eric Klem, an engineer, who helps hugely here in the comments, particularly when a question about engines gets beyond my pay grade.

  • Marc Dacey Dec 5, 2016, 3:17 pm

    This is not only the best way forward, it is probably the only way forward for the Adventure 40 concept. I always got the firm impression, John, that you would rather have been a guiding light in the darkness than a work light in the bilges, and this move puts you back on the sidelines doing “the vision thing” to which I suspect you originally aspired. It’s funny you should mention the Saga 43…that was my “lottery-win” choice before I committed to an utterly different boat, which I am going down this cold afternoon to work on…

    I think I will not be alone in remarking that this phase of the A40 journey has been very illuminating of a certain approach to cruising that I do not see reflected in most modern production boats. I hope that the A40 gets built. I still buy lottery tickets, after all.

  • Warren Cottis Dec 6, 2016, 4:37 am

    This is a very interesting Thread and here’s how I read the Play so far…

    The Adventure 40 had substance because it was a Project supported by the substance of this website.

    John with love for the Project but Frustration with Erik threw the Project open to other backers.

    Erik and Kip quickly circled the wagons to close out the possibility of other possible backers.

    Kip was called out to substantiate who he was and replied that in truth he has no existing financial backing for the Project.

    So as I see it right now… there’s no Money and there’s No Timeline for the project to happen.

    If John doesn’t Pull This Together, the Adventure 40 will just fade away and eventually be removed from this website.

    Hope I’m wrong…

    • John Dec 6, 2016, 12:07 pm

      Hi Warren,

      You may be right. That said, I can’t see how this is a stalemate. After all, if Kip and Erik don’t deliver and don’t participate here that just makes it easier for someone else to walk in and scoop up the opportunity, not harder.

      As to me sorting it out, the only way to do that would be for me to form a company and build the boats and I have made clear right from day one that I was not willing to do that.

    • John Dec 6, 2016, 7:00 pm

      Hi Again Warren,

      One thing I should add to my comment above is that not only do I not want to build the boat, I would also be a very poor choice for that position. I’m 65 years old and this is not a job for an old fart, but rather for a young person with fire in their belly. Is that person Kip? I don’t know, only time and results will tell.

      • Warren Cottis Dec 6, 2016, 7:24 pm

        Hi John

        When I said “John… Pull This Together” I didn’t mean that you had to build the yachts. I meant Somebody needs to be the Ringmaster and I was suggesting that is you.

        I believe the next step is for Erik and Kip to revisit the financial numbers… determine the setup costs and operating costs for 12 months to establish a Base Level of Capital that needs to be raised… and map out a Strategy for raising it… whilst checking the potential for sales in that period from people who have expressed interest and the general market.

        You as the Ringmaster would allocate them a period of time to do that and it is made public to the interested members here.

        If that date comes and goes without success then everyone understands that the Project will be open to other backers.

        Words > Timeline > Action…
        Without a Firm Timeline, Projects drift along in my humble opinion.

        • John Dec 7, 2016, 8:27 am

          Hi Warren,

          I think that’s a great idea and the right way to do the project. But there’s a problem: that’s exactly what I have been doing for the last three years since Erik approached me and said he wanted to design and build the Adventure 40. So, to quote you, “the time has already come and gone” and so I have “opened the project to other backers”. That’s what this post is about.

          That said, Kip thinks he can manage Erik to successful completion where I failed. Only time will tell if he is right.

          And at the moment Kip is the only person who has stepped forward to take a try at it (one other dropped out).

          • Warren Cottis Dec 7, 2016, 9:07 am

            Hello again John,

            You made a very valid comment when you said there are maybe many people watching the development of this Thread who might be whole or part backers of the Project.

            For instance, you’ve never heard me post before.

            So may I say again…

            You opened the Door to other potential backers with this Thread…

            But then Erik and Kip have closed wagons and no other potential backer will want the political situation that currently exists.

            So I think you need to set a New Target Date for Erik and Kip to deliver so everyone watching passively or otherwise knows what is happening.

            And to everyone including Stein, I’m just trying to bring some business objectiveness to what I have read recently in the face of expressed frustrations. I have no intention of pushing my way into a Forum on a Project where there has already been a wealth of valuable contributions.

          • John Dec 7, 2016, 10:17 am

            Hi Warren,

            First off, I think your comments are great and are making us all think, good stuff.

            However, I can’t see that setting yet another date—Erik committed to date after date over three years to no avail—is going to do anything, especially since I have no power to stop or even change Kip and Erik’s project.

            Further, judging from their comments here, I think the reality is that Kip and Erik intend to see if they can carve out part of the AAC/A40 community and move it to a site they, rather than some cranky old guy, control. If that’s the case, there’s really nothing I can do.

            The reality is that this is just an extension of the original problem: Erik has sat on the project as the incumbent, but not met the deadlines he set for himself.

            That said, if someone else comes forward I will be happy to talk with them. That was the whole reason for making the project open in the post above.

            I guess the other possibility is that this was a nasty enough shock that it will spur Erik into honouring his commitments at last. I hope so.

  • Warren Cottis Dec 6, 2016, 5:05 am

    I forgot the stalemate bit…

    There’s no Money and there’s No Timeline for the project to happen but other possible backers now will find this a stalemate of Founders’ positions.

  • Bill Attwood Dec 6, 2016, 4:00 pm

    The website “offshoresaiingyachts.com” does not inspire confidence either. Although “our yachts” was empty yesterday, it has been populated with Bagheera and the Adventure 42 today, albeit with no real information about either. If this is the “new start” for the Adventure 40, then forget it. The gestation process for the A40 was professional in all senses of the word. John’s business background, and the contributions of the AAC community produced something that truly earned that overused expression, a paradigm change.
    I wonder why Kip is so apparently shy of exposing himself to the AAC community. Does he believe that dinghy sailing in college and raising 20 k dollars are qualifications appropriate for the job, or that they will impress future A40 customers? As John points out succinctly, the window of opportunity for the new team to win the confidence of its potential customers is closing. If they don’t immediately address the concerns raised above, then the new start will be stillborn.
    I’m not a customer for the A40, but it is a project that deserves better than this.
    In sadness, but with hope (the last thing to die I am told)
    Bill

    • John Dec 6, 2016, 6:49 pm

      Hi Bill,

      While I do agree that setting up a web site and not participating here is a mistake, I would say that that the fact that Kip is very young and has not raised much capital before should not disqualify him.

      Youth and enthusiasm can do great things. When I was Kip’s age I took over a struggling sail loft for no money but assumed the debts or about $8000, a huge amount of money at the time. At first I made a bunch of mistakes and no one took me seriously, but with a lot of hard work and huge enthusiasm I eventually pulled it together, paid off the debts, and became the dominate sailmaker in the Bermuda Fitted Dinghy fleet. And that business still exists today. Point being that we should never disqualify a person on the basis of youth.

  • Stein Varjord Dec 6, 2016, 8:05 pm

    Hi Warren and Bill.

    No doubt you have knowledge and reason, but what is the core intention of what you serve in these last comments? What is the attitude? What is the effect on the interested here and on those trying to make things happen. Do you think it is better to promote ones own besserwisser position or is it better to try to contribute with positivity? Do you wish it to succeed or do you wish to sabotage it with naysaying?

    I don’t know the answers to these questions, but the group of questions might give you an idea of my impression from reading your comments. To put it bluntly, I don’t much like that impression. I hope it’s just me reading it more negatively than it’s meant.

    • John Dec 7, 2016, 8:19 am

      Hi Stein,

      While I totally agree that a positive attitude is a good thing, I also think we need to cut people like Bill, who have been in this and provided huge amounts of wisdom right from the beginning, some slack when they get a little cranky after three years of broken commitments.

      While I don’t want to turn this into a blame game, facts are facts: Erik joined this project in December of 2013 with a lot of promises. Then when his life changed, he made a bunch more.

      To date, they have not been kept. Nothing personal here, but you can’t exactly blame Bill (or me) for being sceptical.

  • Bill Attwood Dec 7, 2016, 8:09 am

    Hi Stein
    I’m sorry if you took my comments as sabotage, nothing could be further from my wish to see the A40 project succeed. I have read through the full catalogue of comments again, and don’t see any unjustified criticisms. We are not looking to Kip and Eric as “mates” but as the two people on whom the success of the A40 will depend. They will have to behave in a much more professional manner if they are to obtain funding and get the project off the ground. John made it very clear that he has big time worries. I guess the next few days will show whether Kip and Eric have what is needed. Warren’s comment provides a pretty good checklist for the things they need to address asap.
    All that being said, I shall certainly try to adopt a milder tone in future comments.
    Yours aye
    Bill

  • Robert B Dec 7, 2016, 10:43 am

    John – Who controls the list of interested buyers? From a capital raising perspective, that’s the only thing that matters.

    I don’t think Erik and Kip would go do their own thing with the A40. That would not be a good business move. I suspect they are a bit overwhelmed with the recent feedback, deserved or not.

    Robert

    • John Dec 7, 2016, 10:54 am

      Hi Robert,

      As covered in the above post, I control the list and always will. The only people who have ever seen those email addresses are Phyllis and I.

      That said, should anyone, person or company, provide me with credible news of a step toward making the Adventure 40 real, I will happily send out a mailing to said list with the news.

  • Stein Varjord Dec 7, 2016, 10:46 am

    Hi John, Bill and Warren.

    I agree that there may be fair reaons for feeling frustrated. My main point is just that acting fairly is not the same as acting smartly. All here want the Adventure 40 to be built, i assume. Negativity might be justifiable but it’s rarely contributing to any progress. Enthusiasm does. Pointing out flaws can be done by presenting positive advice. That’s WAY more efficient in making the message work than presenting ones own frustrated feelings.

    • John Dec 7, 2016, 11:07 am

      Hi Stein,

      Hum, not sure I agree with that. The fact is that Erik has let a lot of people down very badly and I think that it’s important that he and Kip hear their frustration if only because understanding reality is the first step to fixing a problem.

      And the reality is that Erik has blown his credibility with much of the potential market. Letting him stick his head in the sand about that reality gets us no where.

      For example, if I were Kip, I would be encouraging Erik to make an unconditional apology to all those who have contributed so much, here in the comments, although I have to say that the fact that Erik has not figured this out for himself is scary.

      We all make mistakes, and I do get that Erik’s life changed in unpredictable ways, but that does not alter the fact that promises (many of them) were broken. Pretending that none of that happened is a really bad step. Doesn’t work for politicians. Doesn’t work for corporations. Not going to work for Erik and Kip.

      That said we should also all remember Colin Powell’s law: get mad…and get over it.

  • Rob Hamilton Dec 7, 2016, 11:30 am

    Hi John,
    I think you need to secure the name Adventure 40 before this goes any further. Maybe some of the legal pundits here could be of assistance in how to do this. It also requires you to immediately dissociate yourself and the name from Erik and Kip’s project. The name and the inspiration behind the concepts you have set out is the essence and driver of the project. Without this there is no following and consequently there will be no project. I believe you need to award a designer and project manager/builder the rights to manufacture the boat under the name Adventure 40. Open the project up “to tender” which will be awarded on the basis of a sound “business plan”. The winning tender would have the name and the support of the AAC as long as it conformed to the established principles. The tender should attract a submission fee that would cover the scrutinizing by an appointed panel that should review the “tender” across all aspects such as:
    • The compliance with the initial non negotiable design and execution principles
    • The suitability of the design
    • The financial sustainability of the project
    • The compliance to set timelines
    The business plans could be published on the AAC site for comment with full transparency. You maintain the principle of the final say already well established and trusted by your readers. They of course have their rights maintained by the decision to buy or not.
    If the business plan is in your opinion not sufficiently adhered to at any time the name and backing can be withdrawn and the process restarted with new accountability. By doing this everybody who has bought into the concept of the Adventure 40 will have the comfort of knowing that the founding principles are maintained and there is ongoing accountability to them. The consortium (likely to be) would have the considerable benefit of a referral of the highest reputation and an already established market to exploit. This seems to me to set a realistic platform for risk and reward for everybody involved.

    • John Dec 7, 2016, 5:49 pm

      Hi Rob,

      I can certainly see the goal you are driving at: preserving the Adventure 40 core principles and making sure we don’t get just another junk boat.

      That said, such a structure would, in effect, make me responsible, and probably legally liable too, to make sure that the boat was right, and, as I have made clear all along, at age 65 with my hands already well and truly full with my responsibilities to those that pay my salary here (you and the other members), I’m just not willing to do that.

      That said, even if I was willing to run the project at the level you suggest, I’m not sure that such a top-down traditional business approach is the best answer anyway. After all, we got this far (great boat spec, 375 people interested and several willing to put down a deposit) with a less “corporate” approach. That’s why I thought that something based more on the open source model, as detailed in the post above, might be a better way. It remains to be seen whether I’m right or not.

      And finally, I think your idea of publishing business plans for comment is a great one. Kip, how about it? Give me permission and I will publish your business plan here. You will get some great feedback from a lot of smart people. It’s a win, win, and will demonstrate your commitment to transparency in a solid way.

  • Rob Hamilton Dec 8, 2016, 11:04 am

    Hi John

    Please forgive me for beating this to death, but there are so many positive aspects to the Adventure 40 concept that it would be truly sad for it not to find expression on the high seas.
    The passionate following of the project means that I am not alone in this sentiment.
    I get your fear about being buried in involvement in the project, but can this not be limited to your holding those that want to take it on accountable in the court of public opinion, ably led by yourself, without liability?

    Consider a likely scenario where Erik and Kip build and start selling a boat called the Adventure 40 that does not conform to the founding principles. By association, at least initially, you will be linked to the ill-conceived boat. No doubt you would express your critical views through the AAC forum leading to the likely demise of the initiative. The negativity around the poisoned chalice will very likely stop any other suitors coming to the banquet in future. The success of the project is inextricably linked to the endorsement by the AAC. The principles, and a significant number of design elements, are already in the public domain which potentially can enable any number of outfits to build a boat that would deliver on the founding principles. Without the endorsement of the AAC they are highly unlikely to succeed as the essence of the project is not palatable to the typical tyre kickers found at boat shows around the world.

    The point about all of this rationale John is that there is a way in which you can maintain the influence without the complexity of an arduous involvement or liability. It seems to me that the AAC opinion in itself would be enough to ensure the integrity of a project that would deliver a production boat that conforms to principles that makes such good sense to so many of the members on your forum. There is simply no one else who can do this job. There are however potentially many businessmen who could put the project together, boatyards that could build the boat and designers that could design a boat to conform. Why not limit your involvement to an expression of an AAC opinion led by yourself regarding all aspects of the project even if there are 2 or more simultaneous “bids” concurrently competing for the informal endorsement of the AAC? It makes sense for there to be constant commentary on the project which of course would only be possible if there was very good transparency on all aspects of the process. If there was a lack of transparency it would in itself be a reason for critique and the obvious consequences for the consortium building the boat.

    You might want to look at this as a competition where competitors build a boat and the prize at the end is the expressed measure to which the product conforms to the rules of the competition. This informal endorsement would have huge impact on the success of the venture. The advantage that competitors would have is the constant feedback regarding their progress along the way which would enable them to constantly re-align their efforts to the expressed opinion. There are many precedents for endorsements of products you have found to be superior on the AAC and this could be another with as little liability in the opinion as with them.

    The project has been fascinating in spite of all the ups and downs along the way and the potential for on-going interest and learning in the following of such a project might be, is in itself, enough.

    • John Dec 8, 2016, 11:24 am

      Hi Rob,

      I think that all of that is a great idea.

      But here’s the thing, in my mind at least that’s exactly what I committed to do in the above post. I quote:

      That said, I will continue to write about developments with the Adventure 40 without charging anyone, but as an unbiased reporter, not as a promotor of the boat, and only if I think that the article will be of interest to the membership.

      And better still, now that I have no financial interest—not even a nebulous future one, as I did before (possible royalty)—in the Adventure 40, I can truly be unbiased, both in fact and in appearance.

      And:

      Or anything else that contravenes this Online Book or the Adventure 40 Core Principles.

      I will call them out in a post. And nope, there will be no compromising. Great boats are not created by compromise, they are created by vision and sticking with that vision.

      Sure a builder can call a junk boat the Adventure 40, but how many will they sell after I, and all the people here in the AAC readership who have given so much in the comments, call them out on it?

      And there’s much more in the same vein too.

      Please do me a favour and reread the above post and then tell me here in the comments if I have not made it clear enough.

  • Dave Hopkins Dec 10, 2016, 4:20 pm

    Hi John, Last night at bedtime I told my wife about the news regarding the Adventure 40. At that stage I had not read the comments. I was very enthusiastic & my wife said ‘you really want that boat don’t you’. To this i replied,’yes I do’. This morning I read the comments & my BS metre went off the dial. Erik & Kip cannot deliver the Adventure 40. This is how I feel. Cheers Dave. Have to go & move the boat.

    • John Dec 10, 2016, 6:45 pm

      Hi Dave,

      Sorry you feel that way. What with the silence from Kip and Erik and lack of willingness to address people’s concerns, I’m not exactly best pleased either!

      I just can’t seem to get across to them that they need to engage and earn trust.

      • Marc Dacey Dec 12, 2016, 3:13 pm

        It is not uncommon for those of an engineering or technical bent to be indifferent to this need. I’m not suggesting that this is necessarily the case here, but we’ve all encountered the mechanical genius who is a person of next-to-no-words. Often, it’s part of the reason they’ve gone into the trade in the first place: for the relative quiet and the sparse population.

  • Erik de Jong Dec 13, 2016, 4:20 pm

    Dear John & the AAC Community,

    Kip and I have decided after much thought that we cannot build the Adventure 40 as it conforms to the specifications on John’s website. We both have the same main goal in mind, to create a reliable, safe, comfortable, strong boat that comes at a very good price. However we feel that there are a number of technical differences that we cannot justify to our future customers. I have spoken in person to a lot of people, and have sailed with some, that are interested in purchasing the A40. There are some design and marketing decisions that we cannot defend. These would be:

    1. No options: One person has offered me to pay extra if the arch could not be delivered with the boat, another person asked me if the boat could be delivered without sails because he is a sailmaker himself and refuses to sail with sails from a different brand than his own. Another person asked me how we can claim that it is a turnkey ready offshore boat if it doesn’t even have a depth sounder installed. Another one asked me why the boat will be white, we all know that white is the hardest color to spot out at sea when the weather turns bad, that contradicts with making the boat as safe as possible. These are just some simple examples and I’m sure there are dozens or even hundreds more. Making some things optional does not reduce the quality of the boat, and has practically no influence on the cost, if any it is possible to reduce cost for prospective buyers by leaving items off if they think they are not on their ‘must list’.
    2. Gear differences: I have sailed, refitted and maintained boats that have covered uncountable numbers of miles. That has resulted in gear selection for my own boat that now has been tested for 8 years and 50,000 miles. I hate gear failures as much as you do, and I prefer to sail my boat instead of working on her. But none of the items that you do not want have ever failed me and are significantly cheaper and more readily available in every part of the world, compared to the gear you recommend. That is not something I can defend to potential buyers.

    3. Selling a 42 footer and calling it a 40 footer is considered misleading where I come from, we would also be hard pressed to find a builder that would go along with that.

    So to that effect we will be re-branding our boat to the Offshore 42. This boat will be very similar to what is specified in John’s posts but different in the ways outlined above. In conjunction with the re-branding we are launching our own website, http://www.offshoresailboats.com. This is not intended to take readership away from AAC or seal us off from the community that has worked so hard to make this boat as great of an idea as it is. But this is where we take the project from idea to reality, and we need our own platform to do that. If desired, we will still provide John and AAC with updates on our progress as it is made, and we are always open to suggestions, advice, and offers of assistance. Our door is always open and you can contact us on the email offshoresailboats@gmail.com with any questions.

    • John Dec 13, 2016, 4:37 pm

      Hi Erik,

      I think that’s by far the best way forward for your boat. Thanks for sharing it.

      That said, I think you are making a terrible mistake by going down the options route. Could I be wrong? I hope so. Of course, only time will tell.

      Options are seductive, but destructive of reliability and will, I think, add hugely to your costs, particularly in the area of warranty claims.

      Those interested in my thinking on this should read this chapter: https://www.morganscloud.com/2012/05/19/adventure-40-reliability-quality/

      I look forward to writing about the Offshore 42 and one day sailing on one.

  • Taras Dec 14, 2016, 6:46 am

    Hi Erik,
    I have looked on the new design of your boat (O 42) and I see that you moved the heads to the bow. Any reasons for this?
    In my experience, if I’m on watch, wet and want to go to the toilet, I don’t want to go thru all the boat to do my thing….

    • John Dec 14, 2016, 9:12 am

      Hi Taras,

      The reason for these changes is that Erik has put the navigation table back in at the foot of the port berth. I’m sure many will applaud this decision, but in my opinion it’s a mistake since it forces the head forward, as you noted, and requires removal of the desk forward.

      I think these changes reflect Kip and Erik’s decision to let the wants of the market drive their decisions, instead of real needs. A mistake in my view as I think this new direction will result in just another me-too boat rather than one that’s truly innovative and that reflects real usage. After all, who navigates below these days? It never was a good idea, but in the electronic age it makes even less sense.

      It’s always easier to let the market drive a product, but it rarely ends with anything insanely great, rather just more mediocrity.

    • Kip Dec 14, 2016, 3:09 pm

      Taras,

      Very keen of you to notice. Erik and I are still working on a final interior spec, deciding between these two options. The main issue with having the toilet aft with the shower is that toiletries & toilet paper will be exposed to high amounts of water & steam, as would any cabinet built to house them. Unless an adequate ventilation system for a cabinet or other method of preventing water is found we see the need to keep the shower and toilet separate.

      If you are standing a wet watch, you can still take you gear off and hang it in the shower before going to the bathroom with this layout. Not ideal but neither is mold in your head.

      Kip

      • John Dec 14, 2016, 4:33 pm

        Hi Kip,

        That’s a good point. And I totally agree that having the shower and head separated is optimal. In fact that’s the way our boat is set up. That said, on a boat this size it’s all about trade offs and I think dripping salt water through the boat, as Taras says, is a bigger problem than wet toilet paper. Also, the motion up forward is much worse, which can be huge for someone who is feeling seasick and needs to go—trust me, this I know.

        Also, it would be easy to add a curtain in the A40 layout between the shower and head. Not perfect I grant you, but still better than moving the head forward.

        (Our head is forward in MC and I have cursed that for 25 years.)

      • Mike Dec 14, 2016, 9:08 pm

        Hi Kip,

        Mold will only develop on organic material. So it makes sense to build the cabinet in the bathroom with non-organic material if you are concerned about mold. I completely agree with John and Taras on the position and functionality of the head as per the old design.

        Mike

  • Lars Erik Karlsen Dec 14, 2016, 6:31 pm

    Hi
    I dont understand the problem with soggy toiletpaper. In my Sweden Yachts, with shower and toilet in same room, the toilet paper is simply placed on the inside of the door under the wash basin. It works fine. Unfortunate my toilet is placed forward in my boat. Dont do that in Offshore 42.

    • michael f Dec 14, 2016, 10:04 pm

      exactly as Lars says: protect the toilet paper behind a small door in a cabinet eg under wash basin, combine toilet and shower in one compartment, place it aft.

  • Erik de Jong Dec 15, 2016, 4:23 pm

    At the moment, I am focused on finishing the structural design of the O42. Once that is done, I’ll turn my attention back to finalizing the interior layout. To clarify storage in the head, no matter where the toilet is placed, there will be a cabinet to store items like toilet paper.

    • John Dec 15, 2016, 4:55 pm

      Hi Erik,

      Sounds good, but one thought for you:

      The arrangement for the Adventure 40 went through a huge process of evolution and was battle tested by some 300 (including the first outline post) comments. It’s also the layout that 375 people have signed up for.

      So why change it? If ever there was a case of if it’s not broken don’t fix it, this is it.

      And said arrangement has been clearly explained and justified to the market by one of the most successful communicators in the offshore sailing space (me), and you guys didn’t even have to pay for that process. And all of that justification and explanation is still here, all you have to do is link to it.

      You are getting hundreds of hours of my time for free. Why on earth would you want to start that again, particularly since it will be your time and dime this time?

      Do understand that I won’t be hosting and managing the whole process again.

    • Sandy Dec 15, 2016, 6:41 pm

      Hello. Re:O42
      I don’t see the need for a nav. station on a boat in this size range. Most, if not all paper charting is easier using the saloon table. I would far less inclined to purchase a boat with the only head being in the forward location. This layout is a poor compromise in my opinion.

      • John Dec 16, 2016, 9:20 am

        Hi Sandy,

        I agree, and the sad thing is we already sorted all of this out in a long and open process on the original posts. So to be brutally frank, doing it all again is a colossal waste of time.

  • Bill Attwood Dec 16, 2016, 3:45 pm

    Hi Eric and Kip
    I commend your decision to change the internal layout of the A42 to include a chart table. This decision alone turns me into a potential customer. Everything else about the A40 was as near perfect as a compromise can be.
    Splitting the heads and the shower is an excellent idea. The shower provides an area to hang wet oilskins at the foot of the companionway ladder, a real problem with a heads/shower up forward. The move of the heads to the mast is also a sensible move, in my opinion. This is where the movement of the boat, pitch and roll, is at a minimum. On passage, and on watch, men can (and should) use a cut-down bottle to urinate, so no bothers having to go forward to the heads. For ladies it isn´t so easy, but they do seem to be much better at waiting. Probably long years of training, as almost all public lavatories are men-friendly (no queues) rather than lady-friendly. The more earnest business of heads-use has the benefit that it can generally be planned for the time when one is not togged up for deck work. On passage the saloon provides the only really useable sea-berths, and the last thing that off-watch crew need is someone working at the saloon table. The reliance on electronic navigation, to the exclusion of traditional means, worries me. When in harbour or at anchor, the position of the heads forward should be no problem, and the increased distance from the galley area will also be a benefit. I am also absolutely certain that in bad weather one cannot navigate (please note, navigate, not pilotage) from the cockpit. In an aft cockpit, 40 foot boat, the cockpit will be regularly doused with waves. How will one comply with the legal requirement to keep a written log, when doused by waves and dripping with rain? I write not from theory here, but from much practical experience.
    Yours aye,
    Bill

    • John Dec 16, 2016, 4:35 pm

      Hi Bill,

      Knew you would be happy. Just one correction, pitch of the boat will be worse forward of the mast than back aft by the companionway.

  • John Dec 16, 2016, 4:41 pm

    Hi All,

    Bill’s comment, while he is certainly entitled to have his say, reminded me that we have done all this before (Bill and I at least 10 times about the chart table!) so this is simply a use of all our time that, I would suggest, could be better spent in other ways.

    Therefore, I’m closing this post to further comments.

    When Kip and Erik get their design done, I may, if the membership seem interested, write about it and then we can all have a say then.