Broadwater stove (cooker)

The Problem:

This is a beautifully fabricated four burner stainless steel stove (cooker) that, when we bought it in 1996, was billed as the best money could buy; supposedly even better than the New Zealand-fabricated Princess stove, which really was the best stove money could buy (unfortunately, our Princess stove was on our old boat, which we sold, and sadly, the Princess stove is no longer available).

The first Broadwater unit we bought had a defective thermostat. The replacement (readily provided by Wayfarer Marine) was even worse, with a defective thermostat, a ring that gushed carbon monoxide and an oven that blew out every time we closed the door. In addition, none of the rings were as powerful as those on the Princess so it took an age to cook anything. During the first year the automatic igniters failed and the grill became so weak that toasting a piece of bread took forever; grilling a steak was totally out of the question.

Distributor’s Response:

At the time we bought the Broadwater stove, it was sold in the USA by Wayfarer Marine in Camden, Maine. They cheerfully and quickly replaced the first unit. We left for a 12 month Atlantic circle the next week and by the time we slowed down long enough to worry about the stove, a year had passed and Wayfarer had given up the distribution.

Manufacturer’s Response:

We then started corresponding with the manufacturer in Australia who took a belligerent tone, aggressively asserting that the problems were all our fault due to poor installation or water in the lines. We had scrupulously followed the installation instructions and we checked the lines for water. In the end they sent us some very expensive parts, but made us pay for most of them, saying that the stove was out of warranty.

The Outcome:

As you so often have to with boat equipment, we learned to live with it: We never used the dangerous ring, started the oven heating up 45 minutes before we wanted to cook anything, lived without a grill, learned to close the oven door very slowly, and lit rings and the oven with a barbeque lighter.

Finally, after putting up with the stove for a number of years, we looked in to repairing it only to find that it was no longer being manufactured, and so we decided to buy a Force 10 (see below for more on the Force 10).

Lessons Learned:

1. Don’t assume that just because something has a beautifully fabricated stainless steel case, that it is properly engineered, particularly if it is a new product.

2. Don’t install new gear a week before heading off on a major voyage. Duh!

3. Don't leave home without a CO detector. We discovered the CO problem without fatal consequences because our CO detector alerted us to the danger.

Cummins diesel engine, Model 6B5

The Problem:

When doing a scrupulous 50 hour check of our then brand new engine, I (John) found a bolt in the bilge. After much twisting of myself into awkward positions with a trouble light and a mirror, I finally found where it had come from: the oil pan. Things only got worse. When I reinstalled the bolt and tried to torque it to the required value, it turned out that the threaded hole in the aluminum engine front cover was stripped. Wait, there's more:  When I tried to torque the other front and back oil pan bolts that fit into aluminum (the side bolts go into the steel block), four more were stripped. My surmise is that the factory worker assembling the engine forgot to set his or her torque wrench to the correct setting for a bolt going into aluminum and over-tightened the bolts.

Manufacturer's Response:

Cummins accepted responsibility without an argument and agreed to have the engine repaired at any authorized Cummins dealer.

The Outcome:

We wanted to get this done right and so did a lot of research before selecting Billings Diesel and Marine in Stonington, Maine (www.billingsmarine.com). Billings jacked the engine off the bed, helicoiled the holes (a steel thread insert that can be used to fix stripped threads) and tightened the bolts to the correct value. A good job, quickly and professionally done.

Three months later all the bolts were loose again and the oil pan was leaking. Another dealer took the engine off the bed, replaced the gasket and tightened the bolts.

The third time this happened, after replacing the gasket and tightening the bolts, we put Red Loctite (see our Stuff that works page for more on Loctite) on the bolts.

Cummins paid each time, although they did try to argue a bit the third time. (For the good news, see our Stuff that works page.)

Lessons Learned:

1. Since brand new engines, even those from quality manufacturers, have a surprising number of problems early in their lives, it is really important to check the engine over carefully and frequently during the run-in period.

2. Not all dealers authorized for warranty repair are equal. We found two really good ones by doing extensive research and recommend that, if you have a warranty problem, you do the same.

3. Be really tuned in to unusual noises. We recently saw a big diesel, with less than 150 hours on it, going through a forensic disassembly that showed that it was just about to fail catastrophically—probably by throwing the connecting rods out through the side of the engine—when the owner, hearing a 'funny noise', shut it down. When it was disassembled, it was found that the bolts holding the bearings that join the connecting rods to the crank shaft were only finger tight. Another torque problem, this time the opposite of ours.

4. Try and put at least 200 hours on a new engine before taking off on an extended cruise far from help; 500 would be better.

5. Bolts will loosen out of helicoils from vibration more easily than from a normal thread. If using helicoils use a thread lock material such as Loctite. We use Loctite on just about anything that could possibly back out.

Force 10 stove (cooker)

After much agonizing, we finally made the decision to replace our Broadwater stove (cooker) that has given us so much trouble since we bought it seven years ago; mainly because the manufacturer seems to be, after several fits and starts, well and truly defunct (see above for more on the Broadwater).

The Problem:

To replace it we ordered a Force 10 (pictured on the left). On unpacking the new stove, the first thing that jumped out at us was the chintzy nature of the mounting brackets stamped and formed out of 1/16” (1.6mm) stainless steel plate (circled on the picture below). On reading the manual we were shocked to find that after installing the stove in these mounts, we were supposed to bend the two small tabs, circled in the picture, over the pivot bolt to prevent the stove jumping out of its mountings in a rollover.

They’re joking right? Two pieces of 1/16” gauge stainless steel, ¼” (6.35mm) wide, already bent at 45 degrees, are going to stop a stove weighing at least 50lb (22kg) from flying across the cabin in a knockdown or rollover? I don’t think so. Maybe, just maybe, it would work if the retaining tab was in compression, but it’s not. All the stove needs to do to come free is to continue bending the tab that the installer has already formed. (I was easily able to bend one of these tabs with a small pair of needle-nosed pliers.) Worse still, the tabs will be weakened each time they are formed to allow removal of the stove for cleaning or service. In my opinion this bracket is junk and has no place on an offshore boat. This is not trivial: a stove that weighs as much as this one does and that has its sharp edges flying across the cabin in a knockdown has the potential to maim or even kill.

Manufacturer’s Response:

I called Force 10 and left a message stating my concern. Brad Clark, President of Force 10, returned my call within three hours. He was courteous and listened to what I had to say; however, his position gave me little comfort. His first defense was that they had been using this bracket for 25 years. Sorry, but I fail to understand why, when a manufacturer makes something cheaply and poorly, having done it for a long time makes the defective part OK. He also pointed out that the stove is fitted with two substantial bolts, intended to stop the stove from swinging when not in use, that would help keep it in place in a knock down. Fair point, but it presupposes that both bolts are in the locked position when the knockdown occurs. One bolt won’t help since the stove will simply twist a single bolt out as it comes clear of the opposite mount.

The Outcome:

To solve the problem, we had a machinist make two custom brackets from ½” aluminum plate with a retaining stop, as shown in the photograph to the right. This cost us over $200, not unreasonable for a custom job. (A comparable mass-produced bracket would only cost Force 10 a few dollars.) I’m incensed that we have had to spend this kind of money to make what is supposed to be a quality product, costing $1300.00, safe.

Lessons Learned:

1. Even a piece of marine equipment that has been sold for many years can have glaring safety issues that must be fixed during installation. Sadly, this is by no means the first time this lesson has been brought home to us.

2. Watching out for this kind of thing is just another aspect of the constant vigilance that going offshore in small boats requires.

3. It would have been much better to make this purchase decision at a major boat show where we would have been able to inspect several stoves before laying any money out.

Conclusions:

1. We can’t recommend this stove for offshore use until Force 10 provides a properly designed bracket.

2. We would recommend, even with custom brackets like ours, that holes in a strong area of the surrounding cabinetry be provided for both swing retaining bolts as a backup to the pivot, not just one as called for in the manual.

3. The poor quality of the bracket has shaken our confidence in the entire stove; we will be watching it carefully for other problems and safety issues. The pivot bolt itself is next on our list for a good look.

Update (November, 2007):

We have now used the stove extensively over several months.

Positives:

1. Force 10’s 'patented slide-away oven door', that 'recesses underneath the oven to maximize galley space', is a great thing since we no longer get pushed out of the galley and strangled by our safety strap when the oven door is open.

2. The 'push to spark, electronic' igniters for the stove top elements and the broiler actually work (unlike our Broadwater stove).

3. The three burner model is an efficient use of stovetop real estate since four pots do not fit no matter how many burners you have. The other great thing about this design is that the varying BTU outputs of the three burners allows you to move pots between burners depending on how much heat you need.

4. The lift up top (for cleaning) and the pot holder (to hold pots on the stove while in rough seas) systems work well (except for trying to figure out what to do with the little red things that hold the pot holders together when they’re not being used, while trying to keep your balance in big seas, which is the time when you actually need the pot holders).

5. The built-in heat diffuser plate helps to distribute the heat more evenly throughout the oven, meaning that the back of stuff doesn’t burn horribly while the front is still raw, like with the Broadwater stove—with the Force10 it only burns slightly. (We added our own heat diffuser plate to the Broadwater stove.)

6. The broiler is actually strong enough to grill a steak (just).

Negatives:

1. The 'push to spark, electronic' igniter for the oven takes a long time to light, raising worries about letting propane escape.

2. It would be nice if the broiler could be somewhat larger so as to cook more than one steak at a time.

3. The oven takes a very long time to heat and even when it has supposedly reached the selected temperature, it doesn’t seem to cook as hot as a standard household oven.

4. The oven rack sliders are too wide, for no good reason that we can see, limiting the width of the oven and therefore the size of pans that can be used in it. The oven is small enough without decreasing it further unnecessarily.

In summary, if you expect the Force 10 to work as well as a buck standard non-marine stove, you’ll be disappointed; from our experience, with few exceptions, marine equipment costs way more than a non-marine equivalent for much less value. However, having said that, the Force10 is definitely an improvement over the Broadwater stove and we can deal with the problems we’ve found to date—at least we’re not getting carbon monoxide poisoning from the Force10.
 

Trident two-stage propane regulator

The Problem:

After two days going to windward on the same tack, returning from Svalbard (Spitsbergen) to Norway, our bilge gas alarm went off. We searched everywhere for the source to no avail until I opened the gas bottle locker to a very strong smell of propane. Using soap bubbles I traced the source to a tiny leak through the bottle change switch on the regulator. We changed to our spare regulator. A few weeks later the new one leaked in the same place.

I can hear you screaming "But the gas bottle locker should be airtight and drain overboard"; you're right and ours does—normally. However, the drain was underwater for the two days we were on starboard tack (another very good reason not to go to windward!), preventing the leaked gas from draining. The gas built up in the locker and leaked into the boat through the hole near the top of the locker that allows the hose into the boat, despite using a supposedly vapor tight fitting made by Trident and designed for that purpose.

Manufacturer's Response:

I wrote to West Marine and Trident regarding the leak in the regulator and got the classic "You are the only ones to have that problem" response. But two units...come on! Because of the serious nature of this problem, there should have been an investigation and, as far as we know, there wasn't. They did replace the first defective unit for free.

The Outcome:

We have switched to a single bottle regulator since we believe that the switch in the two-stage regulator is a weak spot. It is a real pain to change over bottles every time we run out—which invariably happens in the middle of a dinner party or when going to windward—but it's better than 'kaboom'.
 

Lessons Learned:

1. Several small things, taken together, can kill you.

2. It would be a lot better to drain our gas bottle locker out through the stern. Unfortunately, that's not practical on our boat due to the position of the locker.

3. It is a good idea to have a vapor detector sensor in the gas bottle locker to warn of a leak. We do now. I suspect that the regulator had been leaking slowly for months or even years, we just never knew because it was draining out of the locker.

4. A gas detector in the bilge can save your life. Any boat with propane should have one installed and tested regularly. (We test ours by giving the sensor a sniff from a small gas lighter.)

5. Vapor tight fittings probably aren’t if really put to the test by a lot of gas over a long period.

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