Gear Failures & Fixes, Mechanical
Index
Broadwater Stove (Cooker)
Cummins Diesel Engine, Model 6B5
Force10 Stove (Cooker)
Force10 Stove (Cooker), Take Two
Trident Two-stage Propane Regulator
Broadwater Stove (Cooker)
The Problem:
This is a beautifully fabricated four burner stainless steel stove (cooker) that, when we bought it in 1996, was billed as the best money could buy; supposedly even better than the New Zealand-fabricated Princess stove, which really was the best stove money could buy (unfortunately, our Princess stove was on our old boat, which we sold, and sadly, the Princess stove is no longer available).
The first Broadwater unit we bought had a defective thermostat. The replacement (readily provided by Wayfarer Marine) was even worse, with a defective thermostat, a ring that gushed carbon monoxide and an oven that blew out every time we closed the door. In addition, none of the rings were as powerful as those on the Princess so it took an age to cook anything. During the first year the automatic igniters failed and the grill became so weak that toasting a piece of bread took forever; grilling a steak was totally out of the question.
Distributor’s Response:
At the time we bought the Broadwater stove, it was sold in the USA by Wayfarer Marine in Camden, Maine. They cheerfully and quickly replaced the first unit. We left for a 12 month Atlantic circle the next week and by the time we slowed down long enough to worry about the stove, a year had passed and Wayfarer had given up the distribution.
Manufacturer’s Response:
We then started corresponding with the manufacturer in Australia who took a belligerent tone, aggressively asserting that the problems were all our fault due to poor installation or water in the lines. We had scrupulously followed the installation instructions and we checked the lines for water. In the end they sent us some very expensive parts, but made us pay for most of them, saying that the stove was out of warranty.
The Outcome:
As you so often have to with boat equipment, we learned to live with it: We never used the dangerous ring, started the oven heating up 45 minutes before we wanted to cook anything, lived without a grill, learned to close the oven door very slowly, and lit rings and the oven with a barbeque lighter.
Finally, after putting up with the stove for a number of years, we looked in to repairing it only to find that it was no longer being manufactured, and so we decided to buy a Force10 (see below for more on the Force10).
Lessons Learned:
- You can't judge a book by its cover.
Don’t assume that just because something has a beautifully fabricated stainless steel case, that it is properly engineered, particularly if it is a new product. - Don’t install new gear a week before heading off
on a major voyage.
Duh! - Don't leave home without a CO detector.
We discovered the CO problem without fatal consequences because our CO detector alerted us to the danger.
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Cummins Diesel Engine, Model 6B5
The Problem:
When doing a scrupulous 50 hour check of our then brand new engine, I (John) found a bolt in the bilge. After much twisting of myself into awkward positions with a trouble light and a mirror, I finally found where it had come from: the oil pan. Things only got worse. When I reinstalled the bolt and tried to torque it to the required value, it turned out that the threaded hole in the aluminum engine front cover was stripped. Wait, there's more: When I tried to torque the other front and back oil pan bolts that fit into aluminum (the side bolts go into the steel block), four more were stripped. My surmise is that the factory worker assembling the engine forgot to set his or her torque wrench to the correct setting for a bolt going into aluminum and over-tightened the bolts.
Manufacturer's Response:
Cummins accepted responsibility without an argument and agreed to have the engine repaired at any authorized Cummins dealer.
The Outcome:
We wanted to get this done right and so did a lot of research before selecting Billings Diesel and Marine in Stonington, Maine (www.billingsmarine.com). Billings jacked the engine off the bed, helicoiled the holes (a steel thread insert that can be used to fix stripped threads) and tightened the bolts to the correct value. A good job, quickly and professionally done.
Three months later all the bolts were loose again and the oil pan was leaking. Another dealer took the engine off the bed, replaced the gasket and tightened the bolts.
The third time this happened, after replacing the gasket and tightening the bolts, we put Red Loctite (see our Stuff That Works page for more on Loctite) on the bolts.
Cummins paid each time, although they did try to argue a bit the third time. (For the good news, see our Stuff That Works page.)
Lessons Learned:
- Check the engine over carefully and frequently during the run-in
period.
Brand new engines, even those from quality manufacturers, have a surprising number of problems early in their lives. - Not all dealers authorized for warranty
repair are equal.
We found two really good ones by doing extensive research and recommend that, if you have a warranty problem, you do the same. - Be
really tuned in to unusual noises.
We recently saw a big diesel, with less than 150 hours on it, going through a forensic disassembly that showed that it was just about to fail catastrophically—probably by throwing the connecting rods out through the side of the engine—when the owner, hearing a 'funny noise', shut it down. When it was disassembled, it was found that the bolts holding the bearings that join the connecting rods to the crank shaft were only finger tight. Another torque problem, this time the opposite of ours. - Give your engine a good workout before taking off.
Try and put at least 200 hours on a new engine before taking off on an extended cruise far from help; 500 would be better. - If using helicoils, use a thread lock material such as Loctite.
Bolts will loosen out of helicoils from vibration more easily than from a normal thread. In fact, we use Loctite on just about anything that could possibly back out.
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Force10 Stove (Cooker)
After much agonizing, we finally made the decision to replace our Broadwater stove (cooker) that has given us so much trouble since we bought it seven years ago; mainly because the manufacturer seems to be, after several fits and starts, well and truly defunct (more on the Broadwater).
The Problem:
To replace it we ordered a Force10. On unpacking the new stove, the first thing that jumped out at us was the chintzy nature of the mounting brackets stamped and formed out of 1/16” (1.6mm) stainless steel plate (circled on the picture below). On reading the manual we were shocked to find that after installing the stove in these mounts, we were supposed to bend the small tab, circled in the picture, over the pivot bolt to prevent the stove jumping out of its mountings in a rollover.
They’re joking right? Two pieces of 1/16” gauge stainless steel, ¼” (6.35mm) wide, already bent at 45 degrees, are going to stop a stove weighing at least 50lb (22kg) from flying across the cabin in a knockdown or rollover? I don’t think so. Maybe, just maybe, it would work if the retaining tab was in compression, but it’s not. All the stove needs to do to come free is to continue bending the tab that the installer has already formed. (I was easily able to bend one of these tabs with a small pair of needle-nosed pliers.) Worse still, the tabs will be weakened each time they are formed to allow removal of the stove for cleaning or service. In my opinion this bracket is junk and has no place on an offshore boat. This is not trivial: a stove that weighs as much as this one does and that has its sharp edges flying across the cabin in a knockdown has the potential to maim or even kill.
Manufacturer’s Response:
I called Force10 and left a message stating my concern. Brad Clark, President of Force10, returned my call within three hours. He was courteous and listened to what I had to say; however, his position gave me little comfort. His first defense was that they had been using this bracket for 25 years. Sorry, but I fail to understand why, when a manufacturer makes something cheaply and poorly, having done it for a long time makes the defective part OK. He also pointed out that the stove is fitted with two substantial bolts, intended to stop the stove from swinging when not in use, that would help keep it in place in a knock down. Fair point, but it presupposes that both bolts are in the locked position when the knockdown occurs. One bolt won’t help since the stove will simply twist a single bolt out as it comes clear of the opposite mount.
The Outcome:
To solve the problem, we had a machinist make two custom brackets from ½” aluminum plate with a retaining stop, as shown in the photograph above. This cost us over $200, not unreasonable for a custom job. (A comparable mass-produced bracket would only cost Force10 a few dollars.) I’m incensed that we have had to spend this kind of money to make what is supposed to be a quality product, costing $1300.00, safe.
Conclusions:
- We can’t recommend this stove for offshore use until Force10 provides a properly designed bracket.
- We would recommend, even with custom brackets like ours, that holes in a strong area of the surrounding cabinetry be provided for both swing retaining bolts as a backup to the pivot, not just one as called for in the manual.
- The poor quality of the bracket has shaken our confidence in the entire stove; we will be watching it carefully for other problems and safety issues. The pivot bolt itself is next on our list for a good look.
Lessons Learned:
- Even a piece of marine equipment that has been
sold for many years can have glaring safety issues that must be fixed
during installation.
Sadly, this is by no means the first time this lesson has been brought home to us. - Going offshore in small boats requires constant
vigilence.
Watching out for this kind of thing is just another aspect of the constant vigilance that going offshore in small boats requires. - We should have inspected several stoves in person before purchasing
one.
It would have been much better to make this purchase decision at a major boat show where we would have been able to inspect several stoves before laying any money out.
Force10 Stove (Cooker), Take Two
During our recent refit we replaced Morgan’s Cloud ‘s old, and much hated stove (cooker) with a three burner model from Force10. Getting the new stove working properly and safely has not been easy.
But before we get into this I should explain that Phyllis and I love food, cook a lot, and push our stove hard, probably much harder than most liveaboards and certainly many times harder than non-liveaboards. The point being that some of the problems we have had will simply not be an issue for many of you who cook less on your boats.
Having said that, we have had two serious safety related issues with this stove that will be of interest to all, so even if you don’t set off the smoke detector every time you cook like I do, you may wish to read on.
Safety issues:
- Before even starting the installation, we discovered that the mounting brackets supplied with the stove were way too flimsy to properly retain this heavy and potentially lethal missile on an offshore boat in a bad knock down or inversion and so we had to have custom brackets made at substantial cost. See this post for the details.
- This one is really scary: Right from the start our bilge gas alarm would go off any time we roasted something for 2-3 hours. We tried everything to find the problem; I can’t tell you how often I went over the whole stove and installation with soap bubbles without results. First we assumed that the combustion problem, detailed below under "Other Issues", was the culprit, but after fixing that we still had periodic alarms. Finally we got a commercial gas technician to go over the stove with a combustible gas sniffer. In five minutes he had it: The valve that controls the oven and grill was defective in such a way that any time the oven was on a tiny, but still dangerous, amount of gas was also being fed to the grill burner. No amount of amateur sleuthing with soap bubbles would ever have found it. Since the problem started right after installation we can only assume that the oven was shipped from the factory in this condition. A replacement valve solved this problem, although the installation was by no means trivial.
Other Issues:
- The oven thermostat was set so that the low heat setting, invoked when the oven reached the set temperature, resulted in incomplete combustion, which sooted up the safety thermocouple and the electric spark igniters. The manual gives no help here, but a call to Force10 diagnosed the problem and we solved it by adjusting a small screw on the right side of the thermostat.
- The electric igniter did not light the oven quickly enough, which resulted in escaping gas. I fixed this by adjusting the position of the igniter in relation to burner, but it should have been properly adjusted when shipped from the factory.
- Nine months after we installed the stove all three of the stove top burner igniter actuation switches failed. Force10 replaced them on warranty and the installation is easy but this is still disturbing, particularly since six months after the initial replacement, two of the switches are getting flaky again. We are resigned to replacing them regularly—not great on a $1300 stove.
The stove top showing the disassembled defective valve on the right and the three defective spark igniter control switches on the left.
Lessons Learned and Conclusions:
- Even when you buy the best and most expensive marine gear available (we have done this twice with stoves) you can’t be assured that it will work that well, or even be safe, without substantial effort—sad but true.
- Any new propane appliance on a boat should be checked over by a trained gas technician, using a hand held sniffer, before it goes into service. Soap bubbles are simply not good enough. Unfortunately, this is easier said than done since most commercial gas technicians have exactly zero interest in crawling around on a boat looking for gas leaks. We found a great guy in Beaufort, North Carolina, but he was an exception.
- All of this was way more work for us than seems reasonable after buying a $1300.00 stove, but it was ever so with marine gear.
- During the trouble shooting process, Force10 told us to replace the regulator every 5-7 years. Ours was 11 years old, and although replacing the regulator did not solve any of the problems we were having, it did make the stove burn hotter. A good recommendation that we have added to our preventative maintenance list.
- We have said this before, but it bears repeating: Any boat with propane appliances must have a bilge gas alarm fitted and that alarm must be tested regularly.
Manufacturer’s Response:
We were advised by Brad Clark, President of Force10, through the trouble shooting process. Brad, once he got past the inevitable manufacturer positions of “all your problems are due to poor installation” and “you are the first person to ever have this problem”, was knowledgeable and helpful. All the parts required, with the exception of the custom brackets, were provided for free and Force10 even paid the shipping—good service.
We really hope
that Force10 will not circle the wagons in response to our criticisms,
but rather use them to improve what is in many respects already a fine
product. If nothing else, the brackets are an area that needs attention,
particularly since Practical Sailor Magazine came to exactly the
same conclusion about the inadequacy of the current bracket as we did.
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Trident Two-stage Propane Regulator
The Problem:
After two days going to windward on the same tack, returning from Svalbard (Spitsbergen) to Norway, our bilge gas alarm went off. We searched everywhere for the source to no avail until I opened the gas bottle locker to a very strong smell of propane. Using soap bubbles I traced the source to a tiny leak through the bottle change switch on the regulator. We changed to our spare regulator. A few weeks later the new one leaked in the same place.
I can hear you screaming "But the gas bottle locker should be airtight and drain overboard"; you're right and ours does—normally. However, the drain was underwater for the two days we were on starboard tack (another very good reason not to go to windward!), preventing the leaked gas from draining. The gas built up in the locker and leaked into the boat through the hole near the top of the locker that allows the hose into the boat, despite using a supposedly vapor tight fitting made by Trident and designed for that purpose.
Manufacturer's Response:
I wrote to West Marine and Trident regarding the leak in the regulator and got the classic "You are the only ones to have that problem" response. But two units...come on! Because of the serious nature of this problem, there should have been an investigation and, as far as we know, there wasn't. They did replace the first defective unit for free.
The Outcome:
We have switched to a single bottle regulator since we believe that the switch in the two-stage regulator is a weak spot. It is a real pain to change over bottles every time we run out—which invariably happens in the middle of a dinner party or when going to windward—but it's better than 'kaboom'.
Lessons Learned:
- Several small things, taken together, can kill you.
- It would be a lot better
to drain our gas bottle locker out through the stern.
Unfortunately, that's not practical on our boat due to the position of the locker. - It
is a good idea to have a vapor detector sensor in the gas bottle locker
to warn of a leak.
We do now. I suspect that the regulator had been leaking slowly for months or even years, we just never knew because it was draining out of the locker. - A gas detector in the bilge can save your life.
Any boat with propane should have one installed and tested regularly. (We test ours by giving the sensor a sniff from a small gas lighter.) - Vapor
tight fittings probably aren’t if really put to the test by a lot of
gas over a long period.
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