Morgan's Cloud's Ideal windlass
In my last post I wrote about us having to anchor twice and weigh anchor once in gale and strong-gale force winds with higher gusts. In this post I’m going to write about the capabilities you need to have in a windlass when the anchoring gets tough.
And these features are not just for those voyaging to the high latitudes. Just about anywhere 50-knot winds can come at you out of a summer thunderstorm or an unexpected wind shift can leave you anchored on a lee shore, to cite just two examples, and being able to set or weigh anchor effectively may save your boat.
Rugged
While weighing anchor in storm force gusting, the boat is going to get slammed back and forth, no matter what the helmsperson does, putting tremendous loads on the rode as the boat comes up short, and the windlass needs to have a strong enough main shaft and gear train to take this abuse without bending or stripping.
Raw Power
Even our massive Ideal Windlass can’t pull the boat up to the anchor when the wind gets over 30-knots, but it can up to that force and there are almost always lulls that allow us to get a few feet of chain in. Yes, I know, most windlass manufacturers tell you to motor up to the anchor, not to pull the boat to the anchor with the windlass. And we do try and do that when it is blowing. But on a practical basis it is almost impossible, even for a skilled helmsperson, to unload the rode completely and continuously when it is blowing gale force or above because the bow gets blown off one way or the other or the amount of engine revs required to maintain steerage way cause the boat to overrun the anchor.
So you need the most powerful windlass you can get. One that is at least capable of pulling the boat up to the anchor in 20-knots of wind and of easily lifting your biggest anchor and all of your chain.
You Gotta Have a Clutch
In recent years some windlass manufacturers have added the “feature” of dropping the anchor by pushing a switch, often in the cockpit, that reverses the windlass motor and pays out the rode. Sounds great in theory and it might even be useful on a calm day in shallow water when single-handed, particularly if you have a bow thruster (we don’t) to keep the bow in position as you back down very slowly paying out the rode.
The problem is that some manufacturers have used the addition of the above “feature” as an excuse to save money by removing the clutch that allows you to dump the anchor with the rode flying out at a run. This is a really bad idea. (I’m talking all-chain rodes, our preferred configuration, here. )
In the recent blows we weathered we had to anchor in the first in 65-feet (20-meters) of water and in the second in 100-feet (30-meters). In each case we used our whole rode of 325-feet (100-meters) and were able to run the lot in less than half a minute by releasing the clutch.
On the other hand, without a clutch it would take a windlass 5-10 minutes to veer that much chain. I could not possibly have held Morgan’s Cloud in position as 50-60 knot gusts screamed though the anchorage and stopped her bow falling off, snatching the anchor out of its tenuous set, for that long. Also, in both cases we needed to set the anchor very precisely in one position to be safe—difficult or impossible without a clutch.
In fact, in my opinion, a clutch and the use of it for dropping the anchor makes sense in pretty much all situations. I can’t tell you the number of times we have watched boats blow across a crowded anchorage as the windlass slowly veers chain. By the time the scope needed to get the anchor to set is finally out the anchoring boat is not anywhere close to where the skipper intended it to be, or worse still it has fouled something on the bottom, another boat or its rode.
And You Gotta Have a Brake
Obviously, if you are going to run chain like this, you need a way to slow and stop it without using the clutch and transferring the load to the windlass mechanism. The answer is a good band brake with a big wheel and long shaft to control it without getting your fingers too close to the flying chain.
Conclusion
Sadly, I would guess that less than 10% of production cruising boats have a windlass that can meet the above criteria. And I know, by bitter experience, that a windlass replacement is both expensive and a huge installation hassle. But if you are thinking about a new fancy plotter or some other gadget, wouldn’t a really good windlass keep you safer? To me it comes right after a really good big anchor on the priority list. I have owned both the vertical capstan type and horizontal windlasses and I really don’t think it matters which you fit, as long as the above listed features are included.
What do you think? Please leave a comment.
Colin Speedie August 8, 2011 at 1:16 pm
Hi John
I could not agree more with your post. One of the most difficult and nerve-wracking things to successfully achieve in strong winds is setting or retrieving the anchor, especially when there are other boats nearby, or space is tight. You need the best, most powerful windlass money can buy to improve the odds.
Even when winds aren’t too strong, the inability to let the chain go fast via a clutch or brake can make it really difficult to drop the anchor where you (and your future neighbours) want.
It also goes without saying that in strong winds all of this is rendered immaterial if you haven’t extensive experience of how your boat will handle in strong conditions whilst anchoring, and have worked up your teamwork and communications between bow and helm – as you and Phyllis have. Another case of practice makes perfect, in my view.
Best wishes
Colin
John August 12, 2011 at 1:00 pm
Hi Colin,
Thanks for the kind comment. Your point about practice is really important. And over the years we have developed a set of hand signals that let us communicate even when it is blowing too hard to hear each other.
RDE August 8, 2011 at 5:19 pm
One of the very few windlasses that seems to meet a high standard is the Lighthouse. (http://www.lighthouse-mfg-usa.com) Anyone with direct experience with them?
Joe Casey May 30, 2012 at 8:42 am
(just came across this article using link from the current mooring article)
The Lighthouse is an excellent windlass. Most Valiants over the past 20 years were so equipped. While it does have a remote, easy release option, without it you can drop fast (and with an 88lb Rocna that is what we do) and pay out chain fast and break with ease. Also the motor is rated for continuous use (unlike the starter motors some builders use) so you can retrieve with reasonable speed. Our 47′ Valiant displaces about 35K pounds and we have pulled her forward with this windlass in 20kt winds.
The one issue with this windlass is that the pad next to the gypsy needs to be removed and cleaned periodically or it will slip.
Joe
s/v Iolair
47V112
John May 30, 2012 at 10:09 am
Hi Joe,
Sounds like a great windlass. We too have to clean the clutch mechanism once a season or so, but in our case it jambs if we don’t.
Rick August 11, 2011 at 7:53 am
Hi John and Phyllis:
I continue to enjoy your blog, thank you. We have 300′ of 3/8″ chain as our primary rode and the windlass is a Maxwell Nilsson 3000 vertical capstan with brake and clutch. It is worked from the bow. I have often admired other boat owners with their cockpit switches to effortlessly raise and lower the anchor when needed. However your points about quick release are good ones, especially in windy conditions where quick action is needed.
Comment / Question … When we raise anchor our chain is fed below decks at the bow and if there is more than 100′ of chain out, typically the chain falls over on itself which blocks deployment at critical times. We have over come this by having one of us in the chain locker, down below, stacking the chain each time we raise the anchor when it is being raised, which means there is no one at the helm, because I am usually at the bow. I am curious how you raise your chain and stack it without it falling over on itself in the locker and therefore stopping deployment?
Could this problem be related to the fact that we have a vertical capstan and you have a horizontal one? It looks like the “pull” on your windlass would allow you to take the chain off the chainwheel and pull manually when stuck or do you have a special set up for the chain in the locker?
John August 12, 2011 at 12:47 pm
Hi Rick,
Your problem with chain not stowing properly is a very common one and a potentially dangerous defect if you can’t access the chain locker from on deck as Colin can.
We had exactly the same issue on Morgan’s Cloud and for many years one of us had to be below stowing the chain as it came in–not good at all. So it is not the difference in windlass that causes the problem.
Some years ago I rebuilt the chain locker to make it bigger vertically and smaller horizontally, taller and thinner in other words. Now all of our chain stows and runs out perfectly.
There are some formulas around in design books for designing a chain locker that will do this, but if you do decide to have a go at this major modification, I would build a mock up first, as I did, perfect the design by trial and error, and then build it into the boat.
Colin Speedie August 11, 2011 at 9:43 am
Hi Rick
I can’t speak for John and Phyllis, but from my own experience, this problem can occur with either vertical or horizontal windlasses. It is often a problem where the anchor well is shallow, or where there is already plenty of chain or warp, and in these cases the chain can often pile up under the windlass and block the hole. A deeper well, and/or some sort of distribution plate to divert the chain into the well better can help.
As your well is accessed below deck this may not be the issue – perhaps it’s just the fact that chain piles up! On our boat I generally handle the anchor, and stand on a stringer in the well and distribute the chain with a well aimed boot – not very technical I know, but it works. I use a wireless controller (effective, but flimsy) or a wire connected controller, so that I can see the chain coming in.
We do have a set of windlass controls at the wheel, but they are for emergency use only, i.e. when only one of us is aboard and a sudden windshift puts the boat in danger. At such a time, the only concern is to get control of the boat, retrieve the chain and clear out, and we can worry about any chain snags later. But we never use it to lower the anchor – for all of the reasons John outlined.
Kind regards
Colin
Stan Carlyle August 11, 2011 at 7:48 pm
I have 400 feet of 3/8 BBB in the chain locker on a HR42E. It quickly piles up and jams when coming in. I use a boat hook to continuously distribute it throughout the locker when incoming. I thought that this would be quite awkward but it works very well. On the way out it runs very smoothly.
Dave Benjamin August 12, 2011 at 1:48 am
I am a bit confused about your comment regarding needing a bow thruster to keep the bow into the wind while anchoring shorthanded (contained in paragraph regarding need for a clutch).
If I want to anchor by myself I drop the anchor with the bow to one side or the other of the wind. The wind blows the bow down while the chain is being released. Once the anchor sets the bow is pulled back around into the wind. At that point I can back on the anchor with the engine at moderate RPM to insure it’s well set.
Admittedly I’ve not attempted anchoring in a full gale but I’ve used the method in a pretty stiff breeze. It’s worked every time. When I worked as a sailing instructor, we taught that method in the basic cruising class.
I fully agree with the need for a clutch. Our windlass has controls at the helm and foot switches. I’ve always paid out the rode manually, using the clutch to control the fall rate.
Colin Speedie August 12, 2011 at 7:08 am
Hi Dave
I think John is talking about many of the modern generation yachts, which are light weight, with high freeboard and little below the waterline. The moment you stop the boat is going sideways if there is any breeze, and if there are boats around you, then anything you can use to try and keep the boat pointing where you want her to end up will help – including a bow thruster. With older, heavier designs there’s far less of this behaviour, and using prop walk and judicial boat handling life is far easier. As you say, once the anchor bites it will help to pull the bow into line, but to me it’s the bit in between the anchor hitting the bottom and you paying out enough chain for the anchor to bite that’s the danger zone, in a tight anchorage. Of course it hardly matters if you’ve all the room in the world.
In Europe where most boats live on marinas it’s becoming more and more difficult to get away without a bow thruster, especially as average boat sizes have increased, making many marinas ‘smaller’. But it seems that some boats are so flighty that the owners use them whatever the circumstances – in recent years I’ve watched with mounting incredulity boats using their bow thruster to help them pick up a mooring – and that surely can’t be a sign of sane cruising boat design.
Best wishes
Colin
Dave Benjamin August 12, 2011 at 1:31 pm
Hi Colin and John,
Excellent point. I know in Europe, particularly the Med, anchorages are quite crowded compared to some of the places we’ll anchor which are sparsely populated. My technique would not be advisable in some of those anchorages. I’ve not been to the high latitudes, at least not above 50N.
At this scenic anchorage in the Sea of Cortez we spent a few days with scarcely another boat within 500-1000 meters from us. For a short time we shared the anchorage with a National Geographic boat. We could have let 150m of rode out and not bothered anyone. Such a contrast with the Med, ehhh?
http://newimages.yachtworld.com/resize/1/36/23/3233623_0_080220111714_2.jpg?f=/1/36/23/3233623_0_080220111714_2.jpg&w=600&h=450&t=1297214096000
Colin Speedie August 12, 2011 at 3:00 pm
Hi Dave
Great pic, and just the sort of place we love, too.
One of the reasons the Med has never been on our list is that it is so crowded. Some friends of ours went in as far as the Balearics this summer – and are coming straight back out again, largely due to the overcrowding. Which is a great pity, because I know from previous experience that there are some lovely places, like Turkey.
We tend to avoid crowded anchorages if at all possible, or use our shoal draft capability to get into the corners that ‘other boats can’t reach’, if there’s no alternative.
Best wishes
Colin
Dave Benjamin August 12, 2011 at 3:12 pm
Colin,
Noted you have an Ovni. A lifting keel boat like yours is the only boat we’d consider as a replacement for our well traveled Amel Maramu. It amazes me how boats like yours are ignored by most American boat buyers. I think on this side of the pond people are reluctant to stray from the status quo. Aluminum boats in general are not well understood or appreciated in the US market other than in small pockets.
Colin Speedie August 12, 2011 at 5:04 pm
Hi Dave
I’m glad you like them – they have their quirks, but they’re great cruising boats, and I think US buyers are steadily becoming more aware of that, especially for high latitude sailing.
But I could equally say the same about your boat – I never yet met an Amel owner that wasn’t a total convert, and maybe that’s because Amel have never bowed to fashion, developed their product over time through evolution, not revolution, and always delivered a great cruising boat. Respect.
Kind regards
Colin
Dave Benjamin August 13, 2011 at 6:24 pm
Colin,
Thank you for the kind comments. We are converts like the rest of the Amel owners. The basic design of the boats has remained unchanged since the late 1970′s. The newer ones are more refined and quite a bit more luxurious. It’s a design that works and Amel smartly focused on a limited production high quality cruising boat rather than trying to be all things to all people.
Perhaps we can have an “offline” conversation about what you regard as quirks of the Ovni. I’ve never had the opportunity to speak at any length with an owner. If our Maramu happens to sell, we’d be looking for a lifting keel aluminum boat in 18-24 months. I like the center cockpit ketch concept but some of the newer sloop designs incorporating a pilothouse certainly have merit as well. One concern I always have with larger sloops is mainsail management. That has to be well thought out. On our ketch if it gets snotty, we can simply drop the main, carrying on “jib and jigger” as it were.
One thing I love about the Amel is how well behaved she is in a seaway. The motion is somehow dampened so you don’t expend the energy moving around that you do on other boats. I delivered a Swan 44 once and found myself missing my old ketch quite a bit. The Swan was certainly sportier and preferable for a buoy race, but not something I could envision putting up with for cruising. The Amel just has a very reassuring ride and you don’t get pitched around as much.
Dick Stevenson September 9, 2011 at 2:40 am
Colin, I am unable to let go your comment that the Med is so crowded without challenge. We just spent 4 years in the Med and the vast majority of the time we were not crowded whatsoever. We anchor out the vast majority of nights. The other Med-myth is that there is no sailing. In 4 yrs we did not sail our usual 3/4 to 1/4 sail/motor ratio of outside the Med life. It was more like 2/3 to 1/3 of the average 2-3000 mile seasons. The Med offers fabulous cruising with easy access to some of the most history laden fascinating regions on earth. Details if requested. Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Colin September 9, 2011 at 7:53 am
Hi Dick
Thanks for putting the other side of the case. And hands up, I haven’t sailed there, so my prejudices might be just that. Rather like my comments on Portugal in an earlier post, maybe the ‘real’ Med is still out there, if you’re prepared to look for it.
My only defence is that I’m so used to places like western Scotland that really are quiet, so that has become my yardstick. By comparison everywhere else is like a freeway – as I know you’ll find out next summer.
Best wishes
Colin
Dick Stevenson September 9, 2011 at 2:48 am
RDE. I have lived aboard full time for almost 10 years with the Lighthouse windlass you asked about and it does easily meet the criteria John set without problem. When we occasionally sail off the anchor (so far just for fun or safety practice) it can haul my Valiant 42 to windward in a gale (largely protected by seas). It is just a wonderful windlass with a great staff backing up the product. Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Rick Salsman September 9, 2011 at 3:25 pm
Hi Colin:
Thank you Dick Stevenson for your comments about the Med. Bonnie and I left Nova Scotia in 2007 and have been cruising the Med since then. Colin, your comments about the Med are a very common mis-conception held by many. Our experience is like Dick’s, the anchoring in the Eastern Med is certainly no problem and actually a wonderful experience. As for the Western Med, Southern Spain can be problematic but elsewhere is no problem. In my humble opinion it is very difficult to to beat the combination of wine, food, history and culture elsewhere in the the world.
I would be happy to help with suggested itineraries if you are willing to give it a try. There are lots of cruisers notes on our blog.
best
R&B
Aisling I
Nancy Fauls September 10, 2011 at 6:19 pm
I have enjoyed the info on the Windless, as my Husband and I have a Morgan 30′ Out Island Shole Draft Sailboat that we are upgrading and next Spring will be setting off for a 2-4 Years sail, and the comments were very interesting re: the Med as that will be on the last half of our trip. Thanks for the great info!
Abel van Staveren September 14, 2011 at 1:26 pm
Hi John, Colin,
Thanks for the great info on anchoring. I once saw a simple solution to the piling up chain. Place an old traffic cone upright in the chain locker. As the chain comes down, the cone shape pushes it to the side so that it doesn’t pile up. The same guy marked his chain with tie wraps rather than paint as he said he could see that better at night.
Also thanks for a great site, all the info has helped us buy our dream boat which is a cross between Morgan’s Cloud and Pelerin. It’s a Dutch Koopmans 48, aluminium, pilothouse, lifting keel. Refit in Holland over winter off to Norway next spring! Thanks for all the tips and inspiration.
John September 14, 2011 at 2:33 pm
Hi Abel,
Thanks for the kind comments. You have a great boat!
What a great idea on the traffic cone! We use wire ties to mark our chain too. Works great. We have even found some florescent green ones that make it easier to see them as they fly by.
Chauncey M Freeman October 28, 2011 at 1:49 pm
John,
I’ve purchased a Mediterranean 88′ Pilothouse Centreboard Cutter, 99 Tons Gross. She is a TED HOOD Design. Right away I think that her Anchor Windlass a Lofrans Titan 2000 is too small, as are her two 140Lb CQRs. I want to move up to Two 250Lb or 300Lb Mason SS PLOUGH Anchors. Where do I find an Anchor Windlass like the one you have? Also, please recommend the right BBB Chain Size. Is 3/4″ BBB HIGH TEST Chain right? I plan to purchase NEW 100Meters (327Ft) BBB HIGHEST TEST for each anchor.
Thanks
John October 28, 2011 at 5:33 pm
Hi Chauncey,
Our windlass comes from Ideal.
As to the rest of your email, there are a lot of different issues here. You can learn more about chain in this post.
You will also find our opinion on most of the issues you raise by reading through the information on anchoring.
If you would like specific help on re-designing your anchoring system, Wave Action can help you.
Michael April 25, 2012 at 3:25 pm
John,
A note on Ideal Windlass. We have an older version of their Vertical 12 Volt V5C called the BHW. We are just now sending it in to be remanufactured. It has been our boat since 1981 with little or no problems. Only reason we removed the unit was to paint and re engineer the anchor locker to accommodate more chain. The removal was super easy besides the shear weight of the unit and I’m very pleased with the customer support at the factory. Emails are answered within one to two days and they can completely refurbish the unit I’m house (including new chrome plate on the bronze) for about 60 percent of what a new unit runs.
Michael.